Ban Variant-Human! Impact?

dnd4vr

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
People say things like this all the time - but sometimes it's the truth and sometimes they just haven't analyzed their games enough to really understand what's occurring.
Really... Huh, I guess I am just a moron then? Our game runs just the way we like it, thank you very much. Our current game has ONE variant human in it, along with a dwarf, half-orc, half-elf, elf (formerly dragonborn reincarnated to elf), and a dragonborn. Obviously people like playing whatever race they want for different reasons.

Your OP complains about getting combat and defensive feats early, making them too good for you; or at least too good too soon. Other feats are better early on but you don't want to give up ASI to get them. So, variant humans can grab them and other races can't.

Boo-hoo! :cry:

Other races have other benefits to balance it all out. So, this isn't hard you know. Remove variant humans entirely, give them something other than a free feat (like a list of options that won't tweak your nose), or any of the other ideas people have said. If you don't like how feats scale, change them.

I really like this change!
LOL good. At least you like something... :rolleyes:
 

Mistwell

Hero
Only time I’ve ever played Standard Human was when I rolled 5 odd stats. With point hit or standard array just doesn’t make sense when every other race option has so many fun things and standard gets... +1’s
My very first game of 5e where I wasn't the DM I rolled up a wizard which had almost all odd stats. It was also a game with plenty of political and exploration stuff, in addition to combat. And we were using encumbrance.

It just made sense to not have a dump stat. I needed all the stats. Strength was needed to carry my normal equipment. Dex for AC and initiative and saves and stealth. Con for saves and hit points. Intelligence for all my spells, and history and investigation. Wisdom for saves and perception. Charisma for persuasion and deception. The nature of the game, and the stats I rolled, just really drove me towards the non-variant human.
 
Nearly everyone calls the human variant feat 'Free'. Drop out the feat and the human variant gets: +1 to two ability scores and a skill. That is faaaaaaaaaar less than any other race.
It gets a feat that doesn't require forgoing an ASI. That's what is meant by free.

Imagine there was a feat that gave you +1 to dexterity, the ability to double move once per combat, darkvision, natural weapons and a skill proficiency. That would be a very competitive feat for non-great weapon PCs. That is what a tabaxi gets in place of the variant human feat.
That's likely the best racial ability you could come up with and it's still inferior to the actual feats the variant human gets to select.

As we can see, there is a real cost. It allows them to be better at certain things than other races at a low level, but that is intentional. They want the humans to be the adaptable and strong race. They want them to be amongst the most common races for PCs, if not the most common.
Disagree

The flexibility and lack of balance in the feats makes the human variant a strong choice in you're trying to optimize, but it is not a race that gets a free feat. It pays dearly for it.
It really doesn't though. No racial combination of abilities is better than a feat for a number of classes (which classes those are depends slightly on stat generation method).
 

dnd4vr

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
If all you care about is raw numbers, even the standard human with point-buy can have 14,14,14,14,13,12 for a total of +10 to ability scores at level one. That is 2-3 points better than most of the other races can hope for.
 
Other races have other benefits to balance it all out. So, this isn't hard you know. Remove variant humans entirely, give them something other than a free feat (like a list of options that won't tweak your nose), or any of the other ideas people have said. If you don't like how feats scale, change them.
The other races benefits don't balance out though.
 
If all you care about is raw numbers, even the standard human with point-buy can have 14,14,14,14,13,12 for a total of +10 to ability scores at level one. That is 2-3 points better than most of the other races can hope for.
No idea where you go the impression that anyone cared only about raw numbers.
 

ccs

39th lv DM
Variant Human Impact

1. Combat feats are generally strong in combination with high stat and multiple combat feats. Variant human greatly speeds up that process. A variant human fighter for example can have all his offensive elements by level 8. A variant human Paladin gets there at level 12. However, if variant human is banned then the fighter takes till level 12 and the paladin till level 16. Those are the levels that most groups won't reach in practice.

2. Other combat feats are used to increase concentration saves. Caster's tend to love these so long as they get them without impacting their stat increases. Without variant human that would generally put casters around level 12 before we would see these kinds of concentration boosting combat feats.

3. Defensive feats like Heavy Armor master aren't nearly as good if you get it near tier 2 as opposed to the start of tier 1.

4. Feats like healer and inspiring leader also are not nearly as good if you must wait till level 4 and give up a primary ASI to obtain them.

In short - I think most practical feat issues are because Variant Human exists!
Your wrong.
The issues exist because the DM isn't taking the characters capabilities into account when writing/choosing/running adventures.
1st, 4th, 8th, 12th+ lv? It's always on the DM to make things challenging/entertaining.
So stop whinging about feats & get on with being a better DM.
 

Mistwell

Hero
It gets a feat that doesn't require forgoing an ASI. That's what is meant by free.



That's likely the best racial ability you could come up with and it's still inferior to the actual feats the variant human gets to select.



Disagree



It really doesn't though. No racial combination of abilities is better than a feat for a number of classes (which classes those are depends slightly on stat generation method).
Why are speaking again as if there is one true answer to this question and you possess it and everyone else who isn't seeing it like you just hasn't thought it through as well as you have?

And no, I am not putting words in your mouth. I can quote you in this thread for every summary of your position I just gave.
 
Why are speaking again as if there is one true answer to this question and you possess it and everyone else who isn't seeing it like you just hasn't thought it through as well as you have?

And no, I am not putting words in your mouth. I can quote you in this thread for every summary of your position I just gave.
please do so
 
Your wrong.
The issues exist because the DM isn't taking the characters capabilities into account when writing/choosing/running adventures.
1st, 4th, 8th, 12th+ lv? It's always on the DM to make things challenging/entertaining.
So stop whinging about feats & get on with being a better DM.
there's dm vs player challenge rating and that can easily be scaled by the DM. No issue there. There's intra party balance and that isn't necessarily scalable by the DM - though sometimes he can put more focus on a different pillar than is currently being focused on which can help but isn't a silver bullet of balance.
 

dnd4vr

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
The other races benefits don't balance out though.
True, which is why we balanced them out and as I quoted our current party composition, everyone likes playing lots of different races now. If you think variant is too good, balance it out.

No idea where you go the impression that anyone cared only about raw numbers.
Not intended for you (other people are participating here, you know) and just a general observation that the standard human option can be powerful, too.
 

dnd4vr

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
Why are speaking again as if there is one true answer to this question and you possess it and everyone else who isn't seeing it like you just hasn't thought it through as well as you have?

And no, I am not putting words in your mouth. I can quote you in this thread for every summary of your position I just gave.
please do so
People say things like this all the time - but sometimes it's the truth and sometimes they just haven't analyzed their games enough to really understand what's occurring.
How's that? I'll leave your other positions to @Mistwell if he cares to.
 

Mistwell

Hero
please do so
Sure.

1.
No racial combination of abilities is better than a feat for a number of classes (which classes those are depends slightly on stat generation method).
2.
That's likely the best racial ability you could come up with and it's still inferior to the actual feats the variant human gets to select.
3.
People say things like this all the time - but sometimes it's the truth and sometimes they just haven't analyzed their games enough to really understand what's occurring.
#1 and #2 you're saying absolutist statements. You say NO races (without exception) are better than a feat for some classes, and the best racial ability is still inferior to feats without exception. #3 you say people just have not analyzed their games enough to understand as well as you have.

It's super annoying and incredibly unpersuasive when you make statements like that. It's why you get more people disagreeing with you sometimes that you otherwise would. You make a lot of perfectly reasonable statements (which I often agree with by the way, and I've tried to tell you that when it happens) that people would often agree with and expand on, but then add these kickers which imply "I am smarter than you" and "there is no reasonable way to disagree with my position because it's absolutist in nature" and it pisses a lot of people off into disagreeing with you anyway.

I am asking why you do that? Is it intentional or do you just not know you're doing it? If it's intentional, why?
 

pkt77242

Explorer
It gets a feat that doesn't require forgoing an ASI. That's what is meant by free.



That's likely the best racial ability you could come up with and it's still inferior to the actual feats the variant human gets to select.
1. That isn’t what free means. There is a cost associated.
2. In your opinion it is inferior.

Having said that why not limit what feats can be chosen by variant humans instead of removing the variant human. No GWM, No sharpshooter, etc.
 

dnd4vr

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
1. That isn’t what free means. There is a cost associated.
2. In your opinion it is inferior.

Having said that why not limit what feats can be chosen by variant humans instead of removing the variant human. No GWM, No sharpshooter, etc.
Yeah, I suggested a limited list of feats for human variant as well. It was ignored. ;)
 
Sure.

1.

2.

3.

#1 and #2 you're saying absolutist statements. You say NO races (without exception) are better than a feat for some classes, and the best racial ability is still inferior to feats without exception. #3 you say people just have not analyzed their games enough to understand as well as you have.

It's super annoying and incredibly unpersuasive when you make statements like that. It's why you get more people disagreeing with you sometimes that you otherwise would. You make a lot of perfectly reasonable statements (which I often agree with by the way, and I've tried to tell you that when it happens) that people would often agree with and expand on, but then add these kickers which imply "I am smarter than you" and "there is no reasonable way to disagree with my position because it's absolutist in nature" and it pisses a lot of people off into disagreeing with you anyway.

I am asking why you do that? Is it intentional or do you just not know you're doing it? If it's intentional, why?
That's ridiculous. Anything I say is my opinion. Just because I don't put an IMO before or after it doesn't mean that's any less of the case.
 
How's that? I'll leave your other positions to @Mistwell if he cares to.
You quoted me saying it could either be true or something else as evidence of me saying there is only one true answer...

Come on man. I know you disliked that response but if there was an issue with it - it isn't the issue you are claiming it was in this post.
 
I'm saying starting with a feat at level 1 is too much because:
1. It doesn't cost an ASI that could be boosting your main stat
Doesnt a Variant Human have fewer stat points than the standard, overall, as well as a lower stat bonus than every other race.

2. Feat effects at low levels are relatively stronger than they are at higher levels.
;You could delay the feat, or bring in it's effects over Apprentice Teir, instead.
 
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1. It doesn't cost an ASI that could be boosting your main stat
Doesnt a Variant Human have fewer stat points than the standard, overall, as well as a lower stat bonus than every other race.[/QUOTE]

1. many feats that are extradinarily good also give a +1 ASI bringing the variant human up to the same stats as most other races.

2. The impact of a +2 stat highly depends on stat generation method. In point by it's not super meaningful. In standard array it means a potential +1 in a seconday stat. In rolled stats it just depends on what you roll.

;You could delay the feat, or bring in it's effects over Apprentice Teir, instead.
Only resolves one of the two issues I mentioned. The issue about a free feat being to strong to fast is still in place.
 

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