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Banishing Eldritch Blast
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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 7518348" data-attributes="member: 71699"><p>Please remember that I'm not arguing about Hex being good or bad, only about Eldritch Blast with the Agonizing invocation. As you say, at higher levels there are better casts than Hex. I also agree that Hex is not reliably "on", contrary to some analysis I've seen on these boards. In play, it's often down for some number of rounds. In an adventuring party, using the spell and concentration slot to grant GWM or SS weapon-attacker persistent advantage probably out-damages either.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That's a fair question, and as you know one has to make some decisions when forming scenarios. The characters that I use as yardsticks are created along strong lines, without going far from what I see people creating at my table. For example - </p><p></p><p><strong>Ranger</strong> Hunter with Archery style, longbow, Sharpshooter feat</p><p><strong>Fighter</strong> Battlemaster with one-handed weapon and shield, Shieldmaster feat</p><p><strong>Barbarian</strong> Totem (Bear), Reckless Attacking with greatsword or greataxe, GWM feat</p><p></p><p>The contexts in which I evaluate them are based on the game as I see it played. Roughly three encounters per long rest, about 5 rounds long each, facing mostly "hard" foes. That helps suggest the ACs, saves, and hits-back that are likely to arise, and the probable "up-time" for strategies based on resources, positioning, action-economy and ability to stay in the fight. Taken together, I'm not looking at some of the more optimistic builds like Precision/GWM/Battlemaster, or cheesier ones like CEx/SS/Hand-crossbow Archer.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So the GWM Barbarian who is all-in on a toe-to-toe attack is for me the yardstick for repeatable, single-target damage in D&D. Discarding defences to wield the biggest weapon that they can find! For me, it'd be a bit underwhelming if that <em>didn't</em> define the envelope. On average over an adventuring day (i.e sustained DPS) I put them at about 10/round in tier 1, 20-30/round in tier 2, 30-40/round in tier 3. Those aren't the biggest numbers they can achieve, but over time it matches quite well what I see happening in play.</p><p></p><p>The 1HS Battlemaster has a solid AC and gets persistent advantage through Shieldmaster: I think they look like a good yardstick for a conservative melee strategy. I put them on average over an adventuring day at about 10/round in tier 1, about 20/round in tier 2, and about 30/round in tier 3.</p><p></p><p>In both cases, I expect the melee attacks to out-damage ranged. This means I am looking for a 120' ranged attack, like Eldritch Blast, to do say 7 in tier 1, 14-21 in tier 2, 21-28 in tier 3. Taking into account the possible on-hit crowd-control effects, and following what I've seen happen over numerous sessions of play, I'm drawn to the bottom end of this range. I find that with Once-per-turn it deals nearly exactly that. Without Once-per-turn, i.e. as RAW, it deals at the top. In tier 1 there is literally no difference. At tier 2, Warlock might roll for 30 beams a day, missing about 8 of them; the 22 hits distributed over 15 turns. Therefore losing on average about 2 damage a round. At tier 3, Warlock might roll for 45 beams a day, missing about 9 of them, losing a much more significant 7.5 damage per round.</p><p></p><p>But this is not what happens in play. In play, Warlock at tier 3 has 3 high-quality casts that they'll usually recover right after the fight. They'll drop Synaptic Static on some group. Greater Invis. their GWM Barbarian (persistent advantage does crazy things to their damage dealing.) D.Door out of trouble. I think they'll usually miss at least two rounds a combat. In that sense, your Rebuke strategy is actually kind of great! So that is really 27 beams, missing about 6 of them, or again about 2 damage a round.</p><p></p><p>It even seems possible that Agonizing was just a wording bug that they decided to go with, when I look at how hedged most other damage-adds for spells are (i.e. to once per time damage is dealt). Agonizing blasts are d10+stat attacks, that scale for extra attacks at the same rate that 1H fighters scale their d8+stat attacks, and then have 120' range, force damage type, and on-hit c-c effects to boot. Superiority dice keep the Battlemaster about even, and can provide c-c. So for me the direct contrast could be simplified down to what 120' range and force damage type are worth in play? I think they're worth something: what seems reasonable?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 7518348, member: 71699"] Please remember that I'm not arguing about Hex being good or bad, only about Eldritch Blast with the Agonizing invocation. As you say, at higher levels there are better casts than Hex. I also agree that Hex is not reliably "on", contrary to some analysis I've seen on these boards. In play, it's often down for some number of rounds. In an adventuring party, using the spell and concentration slot to grant GWM or SS weapon-attacker persistent advantage probably out-damages either. That's a fair question, and as you know one has to make some decisions when forming scenarios. The characters that I use as yardsticks are created along strong lines, without going far from what I see people creating at my table. For example - [B]Ranger[/B] Hunter with Archery style, longbow, Sharpshooter feat [B]Fighter[/B] Battlemaster with one-handed weapon and shield, Shieldmaster feat [B]Barbarian[/B] Totem (Bear), Reckless Attacking with greatsword or greataxe, GWM feat The contexts in which I evaluate them are based on the game as I see it played. Roughly three encounters per long rest, about 5 rounds long each, facing mostly "hard" foes. That helps suggest the ACs, saves, and hits-back that are likely to arise, and the probable "up-time" for strategies based on resources, positioning, action-economy and ability to stay in the fight. Taken together, I'm not looking at some of the more optimistic builds like Precision/GWM/Battlemaster, or cheesier ones like CEx/SS/Hand-crossbow Archer. So the GWM Barbarian who is all-in on a toe-to-toe attack is for me the yardstick for repeatable, single-target damage in D&D. Discarding defences to wield the biggest weapon that they can find! For me, it'd be a bit underwhelming if that [I]didn't[/I] define the envelope. On average over an adventuring day (i.e sustained DPS) I put them at about 10/round in tier 1, 20-30/round in tier 2, 30-40/round in tier 3. Those aren't the biggest numbers they can achieve, but over time it matches quite well what I see happening in play. The 1HS Battlemaster has a solid AC and gets persistent advantage through Shieldmaster: I think they look like a good yardstick for a conservative melee strategy. I put them on average over an adventuring day at about 10/round in tier 1, about 20/round in tier 2, and about 30/round in tier 3. In both cases, I expect the melee attacks to out-damage ranged. This means I am looking for a 120' ranged attack, like Eldritch Blast, to do say 7 in tier 1, 14-21 in tier 2, 21-28 in tier 3. Taking into account the possible on-hit crowd-control effects, and following what I've seen happen over numerous sessions of play, I'm drawn to the bottom end of this range. I find that with Once-per-turn it deals nearly exactly that. Without Once-per-turn, i.e. as RAW, it deals at the top. In tier 1 there is literally no difference. At tier 2, Warlock might roll for 30 beams a day, missing about 8 of them; the 22 hits distributed over 15 turns. Therefore losing on average about 2 damage a round. At tier 3, Warlock might roll for 45 beams a day, missing about 9 of them, losing a much more significant 7.5 damage per round. But this is not what happens in play. In play, Warlock at tier 3 has 3 high-quality casts that they'll usually recover right after the fight. They'll drop Synaptic Static on some group. Greater Invis. their GWM Barbarian (persistent advantage does crazy things to their damage dealing.) D.Door out of trouble. I think they'll usually miss at least two rounds a combat. In that sense, your Rebuke strategy is actually kind of great! So that is really 27 beams, missing about 6 of them, or again about 2 damage a round. It even seems possible that Agonizing was just a wording bug that they decided to go with, when I look at how hedged most other damage-adds for spells are (i.e. to once per time damage is dealt). Agonizing blasts are d10+stat attacks, that scale for extra attacks at the same rate that 1H fighters scale their d8+stat attacks, and then have 120' range, force damage type, and on-hit c-c effects to boot. Superiority dice keep the Battlemaster about even, and can provide c-c. So for me the direct contrast could be simplified down to what 120' range and force damage type are worth in play? I think they're worth something: what seems reasonable? [/QUOTE]
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