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Banishing Eldritch Blast
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<blockquote data-quote="Hawk Diesel" data-source="post: 7518638" data-attributes="member: 59848"><p>This is more than just a feeling. If you look into my previous posts in this conversation, you will see that I go into extensive detail in the history of the Warlock since its initial appearance in 3.5. The key defining feature of the Warlock from the beginning has been Eldritch Blast and Invocations.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>While this may be true, does a Bard need to give up a spell known for Bardic Inspiration? What does the Fighter give up for Action Surge, or a Rogue give up for Sneak Attack? Because a Warlock has to give up a very precious (because there are so few) cantrip slot for Eldritch Blast. Yes, I agree that being restricted to the Warlock spell list means it is <em>technically</em> a Warlock-exclusive (which is fairly weak because the only way to get a Rogue's Sneak Attack or a Fighter's Action Surge is through multi-classing, whereas a Bard can gain Eldritch Blast through Magical Secrets or anyone could gain it through the Magic Initiate feat), but this is not the same as a core class feature. This is especially true because so many invocations are designed to support Eldritch Blast (and no other cantrips). Meaning that unlike any other core class features, there is both a cantrip tax and invocation tax.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Is the "het" lit up with how non-rogue Sneak Attacks need to change? What about non-fighter Action Surge or non-monk Martial Arts?</p><p></p><p>Once again, if Eldritch Blast were treated as an actual core class feature, we also would not be having this discussion. Nobody talks about how Battlemaster Fighters need to change because their maneuvers add so much to their normal attacks, or how Bards of certain colleges can change how their Bardic Inspiration is used. But because Eldritch Blast is not treated as a core class feature, and rather a relatively widely available cantrip, there is now an outcry as to how the Warlock can modify Eldritch Blast compared to other cantrips. Once again, we don't have these conversations when we talk about how archetypes or feats allow core class features to be modified or improved. And Eldritch Blast should be a core class feature, if for no other reason than the plain fact of the amount of support it gets from invocations. But because it is a cantrip, it is instead seen and compared to other cantrips, which I believe to be an unfair assessment since it is clearly meant to be exclusive to the Warlock. </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Not exactly sure what you are getting at here. If a Warlock got automatic access to Eldritch Blast, it has no impact on builds that would prefer to focus on things other than Eldritch Blast. Just as a Rogue has options that focus on things other than Sneak Attack, Bards have options that focus on things other than Bardic Inspiration, and Monks options that focus on things other than Martial Arts. I posit that Eldritch Blast becoming a core feature (rather than a cantrip), along with Hex, would do a great deal to make tweaks possible to things such as the Hexblade (which once again, I see as broken and evidence that WotC is aware of the problems with the warlock and as such an attempt to over correct)..</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Right. I am not talking about best options for damage. I am talking about having the mechanics of the Warlock align with</p><p></p><p>1) How Warlocks have been presented in the past. How would it look if Rogues were designed in 5e without Sneak Attack, or Sorcerers without Metamagic, or Druids that couldn't Wildshape? We are not talking about a cool ability, but something that from the beginning has been one of the primary aspects of their identity. And</p><p></p><p>2) How existing mechanics (the large number of invocations that support Eldritch Blast) seem to indicate that it is a core ability, despite requiring a Warlock to pay the cantrip tax AND invocation tax to take advantage of.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It bothers me because Eldritch Blast has prior to this edition been fundamental to the identity of the Warlock. But since 5e, it is now an "option." Instead, the defining characteristics of a Warlock is "Pact Magic" and Invocations. To me, this makes little sense since the original Warlock did not have any spells and did not cast at all, but instead had consistent at-will spell-like abilities. A warlock did not have to make a decision whether or not they had Eldritch Blast. Instead, their decision was if they use their invocations to boost the damage or utility of Eldritch Blast, or focus on more general utility invocations. So what, based on precedent, has been a core feature of the Warlock now requires investment from multiple places to access, let alone improve. And once again, this is in stark contrast to Sneak Attack, Action Surge, or Bardic Inspiration where their classes simply get them without requiring investment. </p><p></p><p>It also creates a false equivalency. Because Eldritch Blast is treated as a cantrip, it is compared to other cantrips, rather than standing on its own and being compared to other similar class abilities like Sneak Attack or Martial Arts. Eldritch Blast is on the cantrip list, but it is clear that both in its mechanical design and the specific support it gets from the Warlock that it is not intended for or belong in the same conversation with other cantrips. No one talks about how Green-Flame Blade stacks up against Sneak Attack or Martial Arts. No one discusses Shocking Grasp versus a Fighter using the Dueling Style. Because cantrips don't belong in those discussions. Yet we see those discussions with Eldritch Blast versus Sneak Attack or various fighting styles. And that's because mechanically, it is a class feature and not a cantrip. Yet that is how 5e categorized Eldritch Blast.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think the idea of maledictions is bad. In fact I think it fits with the general idea of a Warlock as a master of cantrips (since they have, from the beginning, always been about those at-will spell like abilities). But I think that having Eldritch Blast be automatically given to a Warlock also does not take away their ability to choose additional offensive cantrips. Those can certainly be valuable either to take advantage of vulnerability, as well as have those nice riders. I just think that taking away the cantrip tax for Eldritch Blast is necessary to recognize what a core aspect it is to the Warlock, both mechanically and in its identity.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hawk Diesel, post: 7518638, member: 59848"] This is more than just a feeling. If you look into my previous posts in this conversation, you will see that I go into extensive detail in the history of the Warlock since its initial appearance in 3.5. The key defining feature of the Warlock from the beginning has been Eldritch Blast and Invocations. While this may be true, does a Bard need to give up a spell known for Bardic Inspiration? What does the Fighter give up for Action Surge, or a Rogue give up for Sneak Attack? Because a Warlock has to give up a very precious (because there are so few) cantrip slot for Eldritch Blast. Yes, I agree that being restricted to the Warlock spell list means it is [I]technically[/I] a Warlock-exclusive (which is fairly weak because the only way to get a Rogue's Sneak Attack or a Fighter's Action Surge is through multi-classing, whereas a Bard can gain Eldritch Blast through Magical Secrets or anyone could gain it through the Magic Initiate feat), but this is not the same as a core class feature. This is especially true because so many invocations are designed to support Eldritch Blast (and no other cantrips). Meaning that unlike any other core class features, there is both a cantrip tax and invocation tax. Is the "het" lit up with how non-rogue Sneak Attacks need to change? What about non-fighter Action Surge or non-monk Martial Arts? Once again, if Eldritch Blast were treated as an actual core class feature, we also would not be having this discussion. Nobody talks about how Battlemaster Fighters need to change because their maneuvers add so much to their normal attacks, or how Bards of certain colleges can change how their Bardic Inspiration is used. But because Eldritch Blast is not treated as a core class feature, and rather a relatively widely available cantrip, there is now an outcry as to how the Warlock can modify Eldritch Blast compared to other cantrips. Once again, we don't have these conversations when we talk about how archetypes or feats allow core class features to be modified or improved. And Eldritch Blast should be a core class feature, if for no other reason than the plain fact of the amount of support it gets from invocations. But because it is a cantrip, it is instead seen and compared to other cantrips, which I believe to be an unfair assessment since it is clearly meant to be exclusive to the Warlock. Not exactly sure what you are getting at here. If a Warlock got automatic access to Eldritch Blast, it has no impact on builds that would prefer to focus on things other than Eldritch Blast. Just as a Rogue has options that focus on things other than Sneak Attack, Bards have options that focus on things other than Bardic Inspiration, and Monks options that focus on things other than Martial Arts. I posit that Eldritch Blast becoming a core feature (rather than a cantrip), along with Hex, would do a great deal to make tweaks possible to things such as the Hexblade (which once again, I see as broken and evidence that WotC is aware of the problems with the warlock and as such an attempt to over correct).. Right. I am not talking about best options for damage. I am talking about having the mechanics of the Warlock align with 1) How Warlocks have been presented in the past. How would it look if Rogues were designed in 5e without Sneak Attack, or Sorcerers without Metamagic, or Druids that couldn't Wildshape? We are not talking about a cool ability, but something that from the beginning has been one of the primary aspects of their identity. And 2) How existing mechanics (the large number of invocations that support Eldritch Blast) seem to indicate that it is a core ability, despite requiring a Warlock to pay the cantrip tax AND invocation tax to take advantage of. It bothers me because Eldritch Blast has prior to this edition been fundamental to the identity of the Warlock. But since 5e, it is now an "option." Instead, the defining characteristics of a Warlock is "Pact Magic" and Invocations. To me, this makes little sense since the original Warlock did not have any spells and did not cast at all, but instead had consistent at-will spell-like abilities. A warlock did not have to make a decision whether or not they had Eldritch Blast. Instead, their decision was if they use their invocations to boost the damage or utility of Eldritch Blast, or focus on more general utility invocations. So what, based on precedent, has been a core feature of the Warlock now requires investment from multiple places to access, let alone improve. And once again, this is in stark contrast to Sneak Attack, Action Surge, or Bardic Inspiration where their classes simply get them without requiring investment. It also creates a false equivalency. Because Eldritch Blast is treated as a cantrip, it is compared to other cantrips, rather than standing on its own and being compared to other similar class abilities like Sneak Attack or Martial Arts. Eldritch Blast is on the cantrip list, but it is clear that both in its mechanical design and the specific support it gets from the Warlock that it is not intended for or belong in the same conversation with other cantrips. No one talks about how Green-Flame Blade stacks up against Sneak Attack or Martial Arts. No one discusses Shocking Grasp versus a Fighter using the Dueling Style. Because cantrips don't belong in those discussions. Yet we see those discussions with Eldritch Blast versus Sneak Attack or various fighting styles. And that's because mechanically, it is a class feature and not a cantrip. Yet that is how 5e categorized Eldritch Blast. I don't think the idea of maledictions is bad. In fact I think it fits with the general idea of a Warlock as a master of cantrips (since they have, from the beginning, always been about those at-will spell like abilities). But I think that having Eldritch Blast be automatically given to a Warlock also does not take away their ability to choose additional offensive cantrips. Those can certainly be valuable either to take advantage of vulnerability, as well as have those nice riders. I just think that taking away the cantrip tax for Eldritch Blast is necessary to recognize what a core aspect it is to the Warlock, both mechanically and in its identity. [/QUOTE]
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