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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7518649" data-attributes="member: 6919838"><p>Ok well i can see some answers and some differences so thanks for your response.</p><p></p><p>First, i judge a system and its elements by itself - not how other games have done it in the past. 5e was built as its own package and i treat it as such - with minor allowances for its sacred cows.</p><p></p><p>Second, when you start arguing about the "cantrip tax" i almost get the sense that you feel the warlock using Eb is underpowered? Is "short" a cantrip or somesuch? That to me is not some accident - but an intended design. The warlock is built to have much more limited spellcasting than the other classes because of the elements in its design. Obviously they have their own ways to bolster that to various degrees using their in-class choices.</p><p></p><p>What i took away from the warlock was that it is a massively customizable class - with more branches and combos of significant differences from the combo of patron, pact and invocations than most any other class except perhaps the cleric. Putting EB in the cantrips instead of having it replace a core class feature seems to fit that design approach, not go against it. </p><p></p><p>As for the notion that if it weren't a cantrip we wouldn't have these discussions - well - the fact that some folks want to choose as a basis for comparisons a naked cantrip in another class vs a warlock boosted cantrip and get their knickers in a twist is a failing of their logic, not of the system. I mean, should we be worried about the system if folks compared a twinned firebotl from a fire dragon sorcerer of dragon born heritage to say Acid srpay from an abjurer wizard and see the Firebolt as too good? </p><p></p><p>yes you are right that others can get the Eb but when they do its not at all at the same effectiveness as when a walrock keys in their class abilities - and most classes (maybe all) have some exclusive features and some that are not exclusive and the warlock is no different in that regards.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7518649, member: 6919838"] Ok well i can see some answers and some differences so thanks for your response. First, i judge a system and its elements by itself - not how other games have done it in the past. 5e was built as its own package and i treat it as such - with minor allowances for its sacred cows. Second, when you start arguing about the "cantrip tax" i almost get the sense that you feel the warlock using Eb is underpowered? Is "short" a cantrip or somesuch? That to me is not some accident - but an intended design. The warlock is built to have much more limited spellcasting than the other classes because of the elements in its design. Obviously they have their own ways to bolster that to various degrees using their in-class choices. What i took away from the warlock was that it is a massively customizable class - with more branches and combos of significant differences from the combo of patron, pact and invocations than most any other class except perhaps the cleric. Putting EB in the cantrips instead of having it replace a core class feature seems to fit that design approach, not go against it. As for the notion that if it weren't a cantrip we wouldn't have these discussions - well - the fact that some folks want to choose as a basis for comparisons a naked cantrip in another class vs a warlock boosted cantrip and get their knickers in a twist is a failing of their logic, not of the system. I mean, should we be worried about the system if folks compared a twinned firebotl from a fire dragon sorcerer of dragon born heritage to say Acid srpay from an abjurer wizard and see the Firebolt as too good? yes you are right that others can get the Eb but when they do its not at all at the same effectiveness as when a walrock keys in their class abilities - and most classes (maybe all) have some exclusive features and some that are not exclusive and the warlock is no different in that regards. [/QUOTE]
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