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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 6374894" data-attributes="member: 5889">Update: So a lot of people (including myself) were eager to see the Paladin as a comparison to the other here, so I am including them into the fray. Also, I did find a math error for the fighter in the 2nd round. His DTPR should have been a bit higher, so I have adjusted for that.I previously did a math comparison between the Barbarian, Fighter, and Monk before 5e was formally released. You can see it here: <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?339963-Barbarian-vs-Fighter-vs-Monk&p=6167324#post6167324" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?339963-Barbarian-vs-Fighter-vs-Monk&p=6167324#post6167324</a>Now that we have the real deal, its time to see how these classes look as far as pure combat. I will be using the simplest subclass for each one, and assuming the normal point buy spread.IMPORTANT: I want to note an important caveat. I do not think that one simple math analysis can account for the numerous intangibles of Dnd combat. However, it can show us some various trends...and it can point out some trouble spots if the numeric differences are very high.Our contestants:Primal Rage: 6th level Half-Orc Berserker BarbarianStr: 18 (15+2racial+1 AB) Dex: 16 (15+1 AB) Con: 16 (15+1 racial) Int: 8 Wis: 8 Cha: 8AC: 18 (10+3dex+3con+2 shield)HP: 62Weapon: Longsword +7/+7 1d8+4 (+2 with rage)Iron Heart: 6th level Half-Orc Champion FighterStr: 20 (15+2racial+3 AB) Dex: 16 (15+1 AB) Con: 16 (15+1 racial) Int: 8 Wis: 8 Cha: 8AC: 20 (10+8plate+2 shield)HP: 55Weapon: Longsword +8/+8 1d8+5+2 (dueling technique, Crit 19-20)Leaf on the Wind: 6th level Wood Elf Way of the Open Hand MonkStr: 8 Dex: 18 (15+2racial+1 AB) Con: 16 (15+1AP) Int: 8 Wis: 16 (15+1 racial) Cha: 8AC: 17 (10+4dex+3wis)HP: 48Weapon: Quarterstaff +7/+7 1d8+4Unarmed Strike: 1d6+4Final Oath: 6th level Dragonborn Oath of Vengeance PaladinStr: 18 (15+2racial+1 AB) Dex: 8 Con: 16 (15+1 AB) Int: 8 Wis: 8 Cha: 16 (15+1 racial)AC: 20 (10+8plate+2 shield)HP: 55Weapon: Longsword +7/+7 1d8+6 (dueling technique)VSMinotaur (CR 3)AC: 14HP: 76Greataxe: +6, Dmg: 17 (30 on a crit)In the last thread a few people asked me to do a multiperson fight, so we will go with 3 minotaurs vs our guys here:Terms:DPR - Damage per RoundDTPR - Damage taken Per RoundRIS - Rounds I Survived (HP / DTPR)Overall Effectiveness (DPR / RIS)Round 1: No special abilitiesBarbarianDPR: 12.35DTPR: 24.9RIS: 2.49Overall Effectiveness (DPR x RIS): 30.75FighterDPR: 18.15DTPR: 19.8RIS: 2.78Overall Effectiveness: 50.457MonkDPR: 17.775 (2 attacks + unarmed bonus attack)DTPR: 27.45RIS: 1.75Overall Effectiveness: 31.10PaladinDPR: 15.15DTPR: 19.8RIS: 2.78Overall Effectiveness: 42.117Conclusion: In a fight without gimmics the fighter reigns supreme, with a 62% better overall effectiveness than the Monk, and slightly more than that vs the Barb. Key Notes: The Barb at its base actually does quite a bit less damage than the Fighter or Monk, as it does not have the extra bonuses or attacks. That said, its Hitpoints let it soak a lot of pain. Meanwhile, the Monk remains very frail, but it can dish out a decent bit before its hit too hard.Update: Adding in the paladin, he has the exact same stats as the fighter, with the exception of a +2 strength difference. For those who are curious, losing that +2 strength puts him 16.5% behind the fighter in overall effectiveness, but makes him a strong 2nd place in this round.Round 2: 6 round combat with special abilitiesNote: We are using a 6 round combat to account for the overall impact of things like the Monk's ki pool...and the fact that a Fighter can 2nd wind and Action Surge only once in a combat.Barb (Rage/Frenzy)DPR: 22.725DTPR: 12.45RIS: 4.98Overall: 113.17Barb (Rage)DPR: 15.15DTPR: 12.45RIS: 4.98Overall: 75.447Barb (Rage/Frenzy/Reckless Strike)DPR: 29.981DTPR: 19.69RIS: 3.15Overall: 94.40Barb (Rage/Reckless Strike)DPR: 19.9875DTPR: 19.69RIS: 3.15Overall: 62.96Fighter (2nd Wind/Action Surge)DPR: 21.175DTPR: 19.8 (updated: This was originally 18.15, which was in error).RIS: 3.33Overall: 70.51Monk (Flurry)DPR: 23.2DTPR: 27.45RIS: 1.75Overall: 40.6Monk (Dodge)DPR: 12.35DTPR: 12.8475RIS: 3.75Overall: 46.31Update: Now that we are factoring in a fighting spellcaster, concentration becomes an important point. Against 3 minotaurs, the paladin has a 31% to lose his concentration spell each round (this includes that hard DC 15 check if a minotaur crits). So in a 6 round combat, he would need to cast a concentration buff roughly 3 times to keep its effect through the 6 round sequence. The paladin has 6 spells in total, so he could cast 3 spells and then have 3 smites....or he can have 6 smites. These are the combinations we will showcase in this discussion. We will use only spells that are bonus actions, as action based buffs would consume too much of the pally's actions in combat.One more important point, unlike the other abilities shown so far, smites only activate if the paladin hits. As such, we won't adjust the smite damage based on miss chance. Over the 6 rounds, the paladin will hit the minotaurs 8.4 times, so we can assume that 6 smites will be activated if the paladin desires. The math to then incorporate the crits becomes very tricky, so I am not going to include that factor. So I am adding in a little DPR (for scenarios where the paladin didn't hit 6 times for 6 smites) but taking away a little for not factoring in crits. The percentage of each is very low, and shouldn't make a big adjustment.Paladin (Oath of Vengeance + 6 Smites) - Because OoV only hits one of the minotaurs, that minotaur will last for 3.39 rounds. So we factor in advantage for that 3.39 rounds, and regular for the 2.61 rounds remaining.DPR: 28.38DTPR: 19.8RIS: 2.78Overall: 78.90Paladin (6 smites)DPR: 25.65DTPR: 19.8RIS: 2.78Overall: 71.307Paladin (Shield of Faith x2 + 4 Smites) - (Note: This lowers that chance to lose the spell each round to 24%, so the rounding is very close on whether the paladin would need to burn 2 SOF or 3. I will show both versions).DPR: 22.65DTPR: 14.7RIS: 3.74Overall: 84.711Paladin (Shield of Faith x3 + 3 Smites)DPR: 21.15DTPR: 14.7RIS: 3.74Overall: 79.101Paladin (Oath of Vengeance + Shield of Faith x2 + 4 Smites)DPR: 25.38DTPR: 14.7RIS: 3.74Overall: 94.92Conclusion:  The Barb takes the cake when going full fury (aka frenzy). But without that the fighter actually shows up stronger. In this situation, Reckless strike provides to be a hindrance....which I would expect facing 3 opponents at once. It just shows that Reckless strike is actually a choice, not a must use ability.The Monk lagged behind a bit more. The dodge ability proved much stronger in this circumstance (as would be expected facing 3 opponents), and allowed the monk to compete defensively with the fighter and barb. However, this focus on defense couldn't bring it back to combat parity with the other two classes.Update: Now we add in the paladin. Its important to note that the paladin is much more complex mathematically than the other classes, and I cut a few corners (looks like it might be time for a quick combat sim program instead). So with that in mind don't take his overall numbers as perfect, they are a little fuzzier than the others. That said, its clear that a paladin who commits his spells into a single fight is both an offensive and defensive powerhouse.Overall Conclusions: The Fighter came out of this looking really strong. While the Barb does come out ahead when he pulls out all of the tricks...its not a night and day difference. Meanwhile, the Fighter is dominant when resources are expended. As for the Monk...the dodge ability adds in some of that much needed defense the Monk was lacking in the playtest...but without its use the monk is very much a glass cannon, and a healing sponge. This monk at least can take care of 18 points of healing after the combat. However, the monk numbers still look grim. Time will tell if the monk's secondary abilities (speed, stunning attack, ability to knock people down with a flurry) make up for its lack of raw combat abilities as compared to the fighter.Update: With the paladin in play, the barb and fighter have some solid competition. The paladin has a good mix of offense and defense, and then can heal himself after the fight to boot. It is clear that he is no slouch compared to his more martial cousins.</blockquote>

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