D&D 5E Barb vs Fighter vs Monk..vs Paladin!

[Stalker0]

Update: So a lot of people (including myself) were eager to see the Paladin as a comparison to the other here, so I am including them into the fray. Also, I did find a math error for the fighter in the 2nd round. His DTPR should have been a bit higher, so I have adjusted for that.


I previously did a math comparison between the Barbarian, Fighter, and Monk before 5e was formally released. You can see it here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...rian-vs-Fighter-vs-Monk&p=6167324#post6167324

Now that we have the real deal, its time to see how these classes look as far as pure combat. I will be using the simplest subclass for each one, and assuming the normal point buy spread.

IMPORTANT: I want to note an important caveat. I do not think that one simple math analysis can account for the numerous intangibles of Dnd combat. However, it can show us some various trends...and it can point out some trouble spots if the numeric differences are very high.

Our contestants:

Primal Rage: 6th level Half-Orc Berserker Barbarian

Str: 18 (15+2racial+1 AB) Dex: 16 (15+1 AB) Con: 16 (15+1 racial) Int: 8 Wis: 8 Cha: 8
AC: 18 (10+3dex+3con+2 shield)
HP: 62
Weapon: Longsword +7/+7 1d8+4 (+2 with rage)

Iron Heart: 6th level Half-Orc Champion Fighter

Str: 20 (15+2racial+3 AB) Dex: 16 (15+1 AB) Con: 16 (15+1 racial) Int: 8 Wis: 8 Cha: 8
AC: 20 (10+8plate+2 shield)
HP: 55
Weapon: Longsword +8/+8 1d8+5+2 (dueling technique, Crit 19-20)

Leaf on the Wind: 6th level Wood Elf Way of the Open Hand Monk

Str: 8 Dex: 18 (15+2racial+1 AB) Con: 16 (15+1AP) Int: 8 Wis: 16 (15+1 racial) Cha: 8
AC: 17 (10+4dex+3wis)
HP: 48
Weapon: Quarterstaff +7/+7 1d8+4
Unarmed Strike: 1d6+4

Final Oath: 6th level Dragonborn Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Str: 18 (15+2racial+1 AB) Dex: 8 Con: 16 (15+1 AB) Int: 8 Wis: 8 Cha: 16 (15+1 racial)
AC: 20 (10+8plate+2 shield)
HP: 55
Weapon: Longsword +7/+7 1d8+6 (dueling technique)

VS

Minotaur (CR 3)
AC: 14
HP: 76
Greataxe: +6, Dmg: 17 (30 on a crit)


In the last thread a few people asked me to do a multiperson fight, so we will go with 3 minotaurs vs our guys here:

Terms:
DPR - Damage per Round
DTPR - Damage taken Per Round
RIS - Rounds I Survived (HP / DTPR)
Overall Effectiveness (DPR / RIS)

Round 1: No special abilities

Barbarian
DPR: 12.35
DTPR: 24.9
RIS: 2.49
Overall Effectiveness (DPR x RIS): 30.75

Fighter
DPR: 18.15
DTPR: 19.8
RIS: 2.78
Overall Effectiveness: 50.457

Monk
DPR: 17.775 (2 attacks + unarmed bonus attack)
DTPR: 27.45
RIS: 1.75
Overall Effectiveness: 31.10

Paladin
DPR: 15.15
DTPR: 19.8
RIS: 2.78
Overall Effectiveness: 42.117

Conclusion: In a fight without gimmics the fighter reigns supreme, with a 62% better overall effectiveness than the Monk, and slightly more than that vs the Barb. Key Notes: The Barb at its base actually does quite a bit less damage than the Fighter or Monk, as it does not have the extra bonuses or attacks. That said, its Hitpoints let it soak a lot of pain. Meanwhile, the Monk remains very frail, but it can dish out a decent bit before its hit too hard.

Update: Adding in the paladin, he has the exact same stats as the fighter, with the exception of a +2 strength difference. For those who are curious, losing that +2 strength puts him 16.5% behind the fighter in overall effectiveness, but makes him a strong 2nd place in this round.

Round 2: 6 round combat with special abilities
Note: We are using a 6 round combat to account for the overall impact of things like the Monk's ki pool...and the fact that a Fighter can 2nd wind and Action Surge only once in a combat.

Barb (Rage/Frenzy)
DPR: 22.725
DTPR: 12.45
RIS: 4.98
Overall: 113.17

Barb (Rage)
DPR: 15.15
DTPR: 12.45
RIS: 4.98
Overall: 75.447

Barb (Rage/Frenzy/Reckless Strike)
DPR: 29.981
DTPR: 19.69
RIS: 3.15
Overall: 94.40

Barb (Rage/Reckless Strike)
DPR: 19.9875
DTPR: 19.69
RIS: 3.15
Overall: 62.96

Fighter (2nd Wind/Action Surge)
DPR: 21.175
DTPR: 19.8 (updated: This was originally 18.15, which was in error).
RIS: 3.33
Overall: 70.51

Monk (Flurry)
DPR: 23.2
DTPR: 27.45
RIS: 1.75
Overall: 40.6

Monk (Dodge)
DPR: 12.35
DTPR: 12.8475
RIS: 3.75
Overall: 46.31

Update: Now that we are factoring in a fighting spellcaster, concentration becomes an important point. Against 3 minotaurs, the paladin has a 31% to lose his concentration spell each round (this includes that hard DC 15 check if a minotaur crits). So in a 6 round combat, he would need to cast a concentration buff roughly 3 times to keep its effect through the 6 round sequence. The paladin has 6 spells in total, so he could cast 3 spells and then have 3 smites....or he can have 6 smites. These are the combinations we will showcase in this discussion. We will use only spells that are bonus actions, as action based buffs would consume too much of the pally's actions in combat.

One more important point, unlike the other abilities shown so far, smites only activate if the paladin hits. As such, we won't adjust the smite damage based on miss chance. Over the 6 rounds, the paladin will hit the minotaurs 8.4 times, so we can assume that 6 smites will be activated if the paladin desires. The math to then incorporate the crits becomes very tricky, so I am not going to include that factor. So I am adding in a little DPR (for scenarios where the paladin didn't hit 6 times for 6 smites) but taking away a little for not factoring in crits. The percentage of each is very low, and shouldn't make a big adjustment.

Paladin (Oath of Vengeance + 6 Smites) - Because OoV only hits one of the minotaurs, that minotaur will last for 3.39 rounds. So we factor in advantage for that 3.39 rounds, and regular for the 2.61 rounds remaining.
DPR: 28.38
DTPR: 19.8
RIS: 2.78
Overall: 78.90

Paladin (6 smites)
DPR: 25.65
DTPR: 19.8
RIS: 2.78
Overall: 71.307

Paladin (Shield of Faith x2 + 4 Smites) - (Note: This lowers that chance to lose the spell each round to 24%, so the rounding is very close on whether the paladin would need to burn 2 SOF or 3. I will show both versions).
DPR: 22.65
DTPR: 14.7
RIS: 3.74
Overall: 84.711

Paladin (Shield of Faith x3 + 3 Smites)
DPR: 21.15
DTPR: 14.7
RIS: 3.74
Overall: 79.101

Paladin (Oath of Vengeance + Shield of Faith x2 + 4 Smites)
DPR: 25.38
DTPR: 14.7
RIS: 3.74
Overall: 94.92



Conclusion: The Barb takes the cake when going full fury (aka frenzy). But without that the fighter actually shows up stronger. In this situation, Reckless strike provides to be a hindrance....which I would expect facing 3 opponents at once. It just shows that Reckless strike is actually a choice, not a must use ability.

The Monk lagged behind a bit more. The dodge ability proved much stronger in this circumstance (as would be expected facing 3 opponents), and allowed the monk to compete defensively with the fighter and barb. However, this focus on defense couldn't bring it back to combat parity with the other two classes.

Update: Now we add in the paladin. Its important to note that the paladin is much more complex mathematically than the other classes, and I cut a few corners (looks like it might be time for a quick combat sim program instead). So with that in mind don't take his overall numbers as perfect, they are a little fuzzier than the others. That said, its clear that a paladin who commits his spells into a single fight is both an offensive and defensive powerhouse.

Overall Conclusions: The Fighter came out of this looking really strong. While the Barb does come out ahead when he pulls out all of the tricks...its not a night and day difference. Meanwhile, the Fighter is dominant when resources are expended. As for the Monk...the dodge ability adds in some of that much needed defense the Monk was lacking in the playtest...but without its use the monk is very much a glass cannon, and a healing sponge. This monk at least can take care of 18 points of healing after the combat. However, the monk numbers still look grim. Time will tell if the monk's secondary abilities (speed, stunning attack, ability to knock people down with a flurry) make up for its lack of raw combat abilities as compared to the fighter.

Update: With the paladin in play, the barb and fighter have some solid competition. The paladin has a good mix of offense and defense, and then can heal himself after the fight to boot. It is clear that he is no slouch compared to his more martial cousins.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

I don't believe comparing monks with fighters and barbarians is fair at all. I'd like to see a Monk vs. Rogue thread, because it seems that the niche intended for the monk is that of a mobile striker, not someone to stand in melee and trade blows, like fighters and barbarians are expected to do. Paladins and Rangers are more relevant to a discussion about balance of the warrior classes than monks.

 

[Andor]

A key part of the monks survivability in 5e rests, I think, in his mobility. There is no default charge abiliity in 5e. That means that a Monks superior speed will allow him to control this distance in most fights.

Now against Orcs, Rogues or other creatures with the ability to use bonus action movment the Monk can be in real trouble.

Also, this was an Open Hand monk, yes? Why didn't he use his trip ability? It grants him advantage on the follow up attack, and disadvantage on the AoO against him if he withdraws.

Come to think of it, as a wood elf Monk he's absurdly fast and proficient with the long bow. He could just pepper them with arrows while running away, spending the occasional Ki point to disengage if they get too close. They should never lay a paw on him.

 

[Juriel]

Andor makes some very good points. The Barb/Fighter difference is the most interesting bit here, it's not a surprise Monk falls way behind on the frontline.

The lack of default charge action can have big implications for something as mobile as a Monk (especially with the Open Hand free knockdowns, which also help the rest of the party out).

And the kiting options with a bow, I hadn't even considered those, oh man. Might work less well against Minos, who get a hefty bonus to damage if they DO ever manage to move + attack in the same turn, but you know.

 

[TwoSix]

Yea, I'd also agree that comparing the front line monk survivability to fighters and barbarians is probably not the most valid comparison. Monk DPR is comparable to a Frenzying barbarian and an Action Surging S&B fighter, which I'd say is pretty damn solid. And if they do get in a scrum, they can dodge and move out of the way. That's enough survivability to me.

I'd really like to see a DPR comparison of these to a Vengenance Paladin and both Ranger subclasses, actually.

 

[kerbarian]

For comparing Barbarian and Fighter, here are alternate builds:

6th-level Human Berserker Barbarian:

Str: 18 (15 + 1 racial + 2 AB), Dex: 14, Con: 16 (15 + 1 racial), Int: 8, Wis: 10, Cha: 8
AC: 17 (15 half plate + 2 dex)
HP: 65
Weapon: Greatsword
Feat: Great Weapon Mastery

6th-level Human Battlemaster Fighter

Str: 20 (15 + 1 racial + 4 AB), Dex: 14, Con: 16 (15 + 1 racial), Int: 8, Wis: 10, Cha: 8
AC: 19 (18 plate + 1 defense fighting style)
HP: 58
Weapon: Greatsword
Feat: Great Weapon Mastery
Fighting style: Defense (works out better than Great Weapon Fighting)

Round 1, no limited-use abilities:

As his default attack, the barbarian uses Reckless Attack and the -5 attack and +10 damage from GWM. Also, as the average damage of his attacks will kill a Minotaur in 4 hits, I'll assume that 25% of hits trigger an extra attack from GWM.

DPR: 37.46
DTPR: 42.05
RIS: 1.55
Overall Effectiveness (DPR x RIS): 58.1

He hits like a truck but also goes down fast. Significantly more effective (by this measure) than the original barbarian build, though.

[sblock=Barbarian DPR notes]With the -5 to attack from GWM plus Reckless Attack, the barbarian hits on a 12 and has advantage.

Chance of crit: 0.975 (1 - 0.95^2)
Chance of hit: 0.60 (1 - 0.55^2 - 0.975)

Damage on crit: 28 (4d6 + 4 str + 10 GWM)
Damage on hit: 21 (2d6 + 4 str + 10 GWM)

Average damage per attack: 15.33 (0.0975 * 28 + 0.60 * 21)

Chance per hit of triggering an extra attack: 0.2475 (0.975 + 0.60 * 0.25)
Chance of an extra attack: 0.4337 (1 - (1 - 0.2475)^2)

DPR: 37.46 (15.33 * 2.4337)[/sblock]
The fighter also uses the -5 to hit and +10 damage from GWM. It's still a slight upgrade in this case, even without Reckless Attack.

DPR: 26.09
DTPR: 22.35
RIS: 2.60
Overall Effectiveness (DPR x RIS): 67.8

[sblock=Fighter DPR notes]With the -5 to attack from GWM, he hits on an 11. Again, his average damage will kill a Minotaur in 4 hits, so I assume that 25% of hits trigger an extra attack from GWM.

Chance of crit: 0.05
Chance of hit: 0.45

Damage on crit: 29 (4d6 + 5 str + 10 GWM)
Damage on hit: 22 (2d6 + 5 str + 10 GWM)

Average damage per attack: 11.35 (0.05 * 29 + 0.45 * 22)

Chance per hit of triggering an extra attack: 0.1625 (0.05 + 0.45 * 0.25)
Chance of an extra attack: 0.2986 (1 - (1 - 0.1625)^2)

DPR: 26.09 (11.35 * 2.2986)[/sblock]
Round 2, 6-round combat with special abilities

Barbarian with Rage, Frenzy, Reckless Strike, and GWM:

DPR: 47.39 (1 round @ 2 attacks, 5 rounds @ 3 attacks)
DTPR: 21.03
RIS: 3.09
Overall Effectiveness (DPR x RIS): 146.5

Barbarian with Rage, Reckless Strike, and GWM:

DPR: 39.49
DTPR: 21.03
RIS: 3.09
Overall Effectiveness (DPR x RIS): 122.0

Fighter with Action Surge, Riposte x4, Second Wind, and GWM.

DPR: 39.48
DTPR: 22.35
RIS: 3.11 (counts extra HP from Second Wind)
Overall Effectiveness (DPR x RIS): 122.8

Conclusion:

The fighter is still more effective without tricks than the barbarian is, but not by such a large margin, and both builds get significantly higher numbers than the original sword & board versions.

I think the most reasonable comparison is the barbarian with rage (but no Frenzy) vs. the fighter with all his tricks, and that's very even. The barbarian can pull ahead with Frenzy, but that's probably best to use only once per day.

 

[skotothalamos]

The monk has the best move of anyone in the combat, can knock prone, push 15 feet, or turn off opportunity attack any time he hits with a Flurry attack, and yet we assume he's just standing next to his minotaur not applying any bonus effects? Movement is not even tracked in the above stats, yet it's a primary monk feature. Yes, monks are not as good at just standing there as the fighter and barbarian; comparing fighter and barbarian numbers with those of a stupid monk just tells me that this particular monk is stupid.

 

[Neonchameleon]

This is all back of the envelope work:

Sneaky Git - Level 6 Rogue
Str: 8 Dex: 18 (15+2racial+1 AB) Con: 16 (15+1AP) Int: 8 Wis: 16 (15+1 racial) Cha: 8
AC: 16 (10+4dex+2 Armour)
HP: 48
Weapon: Rapier +7 1d8+4
Dagger: +7 1d4
Sneak Attack 3d6
Defensive Roll: Reaction, Halve Damage.

Assumed ally who can stand next to the enemy to enable Sneak Attack although not grant Advantage. (Otherwise you run like buggery).

Hits on a 7 (7/10).
DPR: 0.7*(1d8+4+1d4) + .91*3d6
=0.7*11 + .91 * 10.5
= 17.25
Crit extra damage: 1/20 *d8+d4+3d6 = 0.875
Total: 18.125

Interestingly the Rogue is ahead on damage even of the baseline fighter.

Minotaur: Hits on 10 (11/20) for 16 damage.
P (0 hits) = 9/20^3 = 0.09 Damage: 0
P (1 Hit) = 11/20*9/20^2 *3 = 0.33 Damage: 8 (2.66)
P (2 Hits) = .41 Damage: 24 (9.84)
P (3 hits) = .17 Damage: 40 (6.8)
DTPR: 19.3
Rounds: 2.48
(Conclusion: Any self respecting rogue should have run away).

Effectiveness: 44.95 (Actually less because I've noticed I've messed up my damage).

Of course this situation is nearly pessimal for the rogue. If the rogue is only taking incoming attacks from a single minotaur then the entire incoming damage gets halved. Which means that the minotaur does 0.5*(30/20+17/2) 5DPR. Which makes RIS = 9.6. Effectiveness: 19.3*9.6/3 = 61.76. Not too bad - especially as L6 is as bad as the comparison gets.

 

[skotothalamos]

Interestingly the Rogue is ahead on damage even of the baseline fighter.

There should be a name for a guy whose Role is to Strike the enemy better than your average combatant... hmm...

Also, your text is very stealthy on the black-background theme.

 

[77IM]

Even with the monk being played suboptimally, this is still useful analysis. One important takeaway is, depending on how the monk spends their ki points, they can be just as damaging as a warrior or just as tough -- but not both at once.

That's a super useful tactical option. Like there may be occaisions when the monk does have to stand toe-to-toe with a bunch of minotaurs, to buy time or protect the squishies. Now we know that it's not suicidal if they burn ki points dodging.