D&D General Druid vs. Paladin - March Madness 2024 - Final Round!

[Mind of tempest]

what is the present count I have not voted yet and thus can't see?

 

[CreamCloud0]

Though wouldn't it be nice if there were a sort of...separation? Like, if the Wizard did not have to sacrifice "can participate in the single most commonly-used and rule-intensive portion of the game" in order to fulfill its core mechanical conceit, the "I am the utility-belt woman with MacGuyver magic" part?

Say, for example, if rituals were separated from the spell slot system. Obviously they'd still need some limiters, but we could do that easily--they cost money instead. Wizards, being the supreme ritual casters by nature, would have a class feature that lets them ignore some of these costs, call them "ritual components" perhaps. Not like, "can cast any ritual you want at any time for free always," but enough cheap/free rituals that it truly feels like they're pulling out powerful Batman tricks.

I'm sure this is all crazy talk though. No D&D game could ever work that way.

personally i think there's too much emphasis on wizards to be doing Big Damage as their contribution to combat, you have your cantrips which can do 'reasonable' damage all day long, often with rider effects, and you have all your control and buff spells still: crown of madness, banishment, wall of fire, hypnotic pattern, earthbind, haste..., plus leave them a few damage spells that are intended as the 'combat utility belt' that nonmagic combat can't deal with: magic missile, chromatic orb, shatter, those sorts of spell.

i do not think a wizard should be a capital C-combatant in the way a fighter or a paladin is, you are soft and squishy and should be cowering for your life away from the giant with their club which weighs more than you do.

 

[CreamCloud0]

what is the present count I have not voted yet and thus can't see?

i feel this is against the point of it being a blind vote but here

Spoiler: the current scores

druid 24
paladin 30

 

[Cadence]

I'm curious whether your group is mainly folks who started playing DnD long ago, that would fit my stereotype prediction that no one under 30 has every played a rogue, cleric, or wizard. Surely there are exceptions though so who knows

In the game I run for my son and his friends, only 1 rogue, 1 cleric, and 3 wizards out of the 18 characters (6 total different players). Ages have ranged from 10-14 at time of character creation.

First game (on hold at level 16):
Fighter (Champion) - Eventually Dhampir
Fighter (Eldritch Knight) - Halfling
Fighter (Eldritch Knight) - Elf
Fighter (Eldritch Knight) - Human
Sorcerer (Draconic Bloodline) - Dragonborn
Wizard (Necromancy) - Human
Wizard (Evocation) - Dwarf

Second game (currently level 5 or 6):
Barbarian (Path of the Beast) - Custom Race
Barbarian (Path of the Beast) - Gnome
Barbarian (Path of the Beast) - Tortle
Bloodhunter (Mutant) - Tiefling
Cleric (Tempest) - Air Genasi
Druid (Wildfire) - Human
Fighter (Eldritch Knight) - Drgonborn
Fighter (Samurai) - Warforged
Fighter (Gunslinger) - Elf
Paladin (Conquest) - Autognome
Ranger (Monster Slayer) - Half-Elf
Rogue (Arcane Trickster) - Dragonborn
Sorcerer (Draconic) - Aarakockra
Warlock (Celestial) - Elf
Wizard (Abjuration) - Tabaxi

 

[EzekielRaiden]

personally i think there's too much emphasis on wizards to be doing Big Damage as their contribution to combat, you have your cantrips which can do 'reasonable' damage all day long, often with rider effects, and you have all your control and buff spells still: crown of madness, banishment, wall of fire, hypnotic pattern, earthbind, haste..., plus leave them a few damage spells that are intended as the 'combat utility belt' that nonmagic combat can't deal with: magic missile, chromatic orb, shatter, those sorts of spell.

i do not think a wizard should be a capital C-combatant in the way a fighter or a paladin is, you are soft and squishy and should be cowering for your life away from the giant with their club which weighs more than you do.

I was making a perhaps too attenuated joke. The system I just described is what 4e did. Every character had combat-facing AED powers and variably applicable U powers, and then Rituals were an entirely separate system paid for by money and/or ritual components (or residuum, the condensed magic that comes from disenchanting most magic items.)

 

[CreamCloud0]

I was making a perhaps too attenuated joke. The system I just described is what 4e did. Every character had combat-facing AED powers and variably applicable U powers, and then Rituals were an entirely separate system paid for by money and/or ritual components (or residuum, the condensed magic that comes from disenchanting most magic items.)

oh i'm aware, but i think my post can stand independent of that, the strength of a wizard's AED powers should not match a fighter's AED's if more of the fighter's total power budget is dedicated to their potential in the combat pillar.

 

[CleverNickName]

I'm curious whether your group is mainly folks who started playing DnD long ago, that would fit my stereotype prediction that no one under 30 has every played a rogue, cleric, or wizard. Surely there are exceptions though so who knows

All ages, for us. One of my 40something players rolled up a Fighter, another 40something rolled up a Rogue, and their 11 and 12 year old offspring are currently playing a Fighter and a Cleric for their home game, I'm told. So far, I'm the only one to ever roll up a Wizard.

If you count multiclassing, we've had all four of these classes in every campaign, to some extent: Fighter is a popular two-level dip for every spellcasting class, especially warlock, druid, and sorcerer. Rogue and Cleric (especially trickery clerics) are popular with bards, rangers, and paladins. And chances are, if someone in our group rolls up a Fighter at level 1, they almost always have levels of Wizard or Cleric by the time they reach 10th level.

 

[CleverNickName]

what is the present count I have not voted yet and thus can't see?

Please don't post the scores here (or elsewhere), people should have to vote in order to see the scores.

 

[Tonguez]

This match up prompted some thoughts for me.

I like Oath of the Ancients and the general vibe of a paladin to the "old gods" or primal forces.

Is there a way to take a few more steps on that path?

My initial thought was to swap something out of the paladin in exchange for the Totem barbarian's animal-related abilities.

I then started to think of spells which would allow partial shape-shifting or calling upon a spirit animal. So, instead of shifting into a bear, perhaps you invoke the spirit of the bear and enter a fighting stance that grants various bonuses based upon a particular animal. Mechanically, this might take the form of a Concentration spell that is loosely based on Enhance Ability.

Bear Stance would grant Paladin Level+CHA temp HP; advantage on Con checks for the paladin and adjacent allies, and.... maybe something else for as long as the paladin concentrates (up to Cha Modifier Hours). The temp HP do not regenerate, but they may be 'healed' as long as the stance is in effect.

Just a rough idea.

What would you swap out of the normal Paladin package for any of this?

I've got a homebrew Paladin, Champion of the Beast Spirit which does that.

Beast Champions stand forward to sacrifice themselves to contain the fury and bloodlust of the Beast Spirits, primal manifestations of instinct and ferocity that stalk the wild places of the world. These Beast spirits - Hawk, Shark, Boar, Velociraptor, Wolf, and Tiger - manifest the strength, agility and instinct of savage nature , ever hungry to devour living souls. Champions through strict discipline of mind and soul have learnt to resist the bloodlust of these powerful spirits and to channel this primal fury to smite their enemies.

3 Spirit Fury -Beast Champions channel the Fury of the Primal Beasts (damage resistance, advantage on Str and Dex checks, bonus attack and also gain advantage on saving throws against effects that would cause loss of control due to fear, rage, or other influences
3 Channel Divinity (Primal Beast Spirit) - Bond with a Beast Spirit and gain thematic +1 ability bonus and skill proficiency.

*Bloodlusted Avatar (Flaw) - If a Beast Champion suffers an effect that causes them to lose control (eg due to rage, being frightened or charmed etc.) they risk succumbing to the primal urges of the Beast Spirit and fully transforming into a savage Bloodlusted Avatar. The Bloodlusted Avatar attacks the nearest living creature each turn until it is knocked out or overcomes the original loss of control. They do not get advantage to saving throws in this form.

11 Beast Smite - on a weapon attack unleash the Beast Spirit to attack simultaneously plus a secondary effect (eg Velociraptors Slash caused +1d6 damage and slow effect (Dex save))
15 Manifest Spirit - the Champions features take on the physical appearance of the Beast Spirit and they gain special movement and attack actions. (Hawk Champions get Leap and Dive attack, Boar Champions get a Trample ability,,Wolf Champions can use Pack tactics)
20th Avatar of the Beast Assume the spectral form of your chosen Beast Spirit (gain resistance, bonus magical damage, and free beast smites)

 

[ezo]

Well, I know it is pointless now, but I suppose I might as well vote...

No Cinderella story, sorry folks.