D&D 5E Barb vs Fighter vs Monk..vs Paladin!

[Zelc]

With such high stat distributions, I wouldn't be surprised if the Paladin does better than the Fighter. The Paladin has better usage of extra stats than the Fighter does, and (while it doesn't matter at level 5) high stats negate the Fighter's advantage in extra ability increases. The other thing is the Paladin has GWM which significantly increases damage especially at low levels.

With the default array and no feats, I found that Fighters match up very consistently with Paladins through several benchmark levels. You can see my numbers here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ombat-Benchmarking-(Class-Comparison)-UPDATED

 

[Cortrillion]

As I was saying the paladin looks to be a head by a significant magien. On top of that the paladin has numerus out of combat options like sense undeads/deamons, spells and healing of other party members. They also have massive in combat passivs that buff them and the party, auras. The aura of protection alone is completely unbalanced adding as much to all saves as prof bonus would adds. Sacred weapon is about as bad adding cha bonus to all attacks for 1min. The oath paladin also gains permanent protection from evil/good giving all attacks from evil creatures disadvantage. The 3 alone are well above the fighter.

Even with only two high stats the paladin would still be ahead by picking str and cha.

In the benchmark test the paladin uses a one hander, as he has alot more sustain than the warrior, he , if anyone should be using a twohander...

 

[Celtavian]

Our run to level 16 with a fighter and paladin in the same group, the paladin was far more useful than the fighter without the player attempting to optimize. A sword and board Vengeance paladin brought a lot more to the table than a fighter. Fighters hit things. Paladins fill a lot more gaps. The saving throw aura alone was a huge lifesaver. The ability to heal came in handy many times either keeping the paladin alive or getting someone else back on his feet. Smiting with hold person or hold monster way better than fighter hitting it. The paladin receives a lot of useful spells as well. The fighter does more consistent damage. The both nova pretty well. Once damage is taken out of the equation, the paladin wins everywhere else.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Primal Rage: 6th level Half-Orc Berserker Barbarian

Str: 18 (15+2racial+1 AB) Dex: 16 (15+1 AB) Con: 16 (15+1 racial) Int: 8 Wis: 8 Cha: 8
AC: 18 (10+3dex+3con+2 shield)
HP: 62
Weapon: Longsword +7/+7 1d8+4 (+2 with rage)

Apologies if this has already been addressed (I haven't read the whole thread yet), but shouldn't his AC be 19? Half-plate Armor is AC 15, +2 for DX, +2 for Shield. There's no reason for him to be running around bare-chested with AC 18 unless he's just been cut down from the tree whereon Constantius the Falcon crucified him. (Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Witch_Shall_be_Born)

After all, if the fighter can afford plate armor, surely the barbarian can afford half-plate.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

What about...

Human Paladin, Carlius, Oath of Devotion, Heavy Armor mastery, GWM, using a maul, 2hander style. Chain mail.
Str: 20 Dex: 10, con: 16 (15+1), wiz: 15, int: 12, cha: 18. Ac: 16, Level: 5, hp: 49.

Human fighter, Uther, battlemaster, Shield mastery, Heavy armor mastery, using battle axe, dueling style, chain mail, shield.
Str: 20, dex: 16, con: 18, wiz: 15, int: 12, cha: 10. Ac: 18, level: 5 hp: 54.

The round before closing to fight the Warrior draws his shield and sword and the paladin draws his hammer and uses Sacred Weapon.
This is from "The real World" as the two characters are Uther Hardholder, a scared veteran of the north and Carlius Dragonbane, a devout champion of Pelor. Stats are simplified, but both have really high rolls.

I don't have the formulas you are all using ready, so if one of you could run the numbers I would be grateful. It looks to me like the paladin is a massive favorite here. From the gaming sessions, I would say that the paladin dose around 3 times as much damage as the warrior, but this could be luck.

It does look like this particular fighter is going to lose to this particular paladin, but I wouldn't generalize to all fighters. This guy took Heavy Armor Mastery which is great against hordes of monsters and rubbish against a GWM-enabled paladin, so he's not getting much benefit out of one of his major feats. On the other hand, the paladin also has Heavy Armor Mastery, but the fighter has no GWM to cancel it out. (It's not clear BTW what the fighter spent his extra feat on--maybe an ASI?) That means the paladin has a huge advantage, probably 2:1, before you even factor in class abilities. It would still be a lopsided fight even if this were fighter vs. fighter. Normally I'd expect to see a battlemaster with GWM and Precise Strike so he can turn misses into hits[1], or an Eldritch Knight[2] with sword and board so he can Shield/Blur himself against hits while his familiar Helps him get advantage, but I'm not sure what this battlemaster is doing with his superiority dice. Maybe he's going to Disarm the paladin and kick his maul off a cliff? That could work.

Also, Sacred Weapon is fairly easily negated if he's willing to just stall for a minute. Just move away as quickly as Carlius moves towards you. (Eat an opportunity attack if you need to--depends on circumstances and terrain.) In cramped quarters this wouldn't work of course, or if you were fighting in some kind of formalized setting where the paladin has a recognized "right" to be hitting you with his holy sword. In a formalized setting you may be able to stall just by talking to Carlius and/or the judges. In real life, fencers buy time by tying their shoelaces...

-Max

[1] With GWM and a halberd and Precise Strike, he'd hit the paladin for 87 points of damage ((4 + 5 + 5 + 5.5 - 5) / 20 * 20 * 6, neglecting crits and assuming Action Surge usage) in the first round.

[2] The most effective Eldritch Knight against this paladin is actually one who takes Expeditious Retreat so he can kill the paladin to death from range without risk, but that's clearly not the concept you have in mind for Uther so we'll say no more about archery.

 

[Cortrillion]

Hey emdw45. They are not fighting each other, and the fighter has shield mastery as feat. Battlemaster stuff is rippost, distracting strike and menacing strike. We are talking more along the line of filling rolls in the party. The problem is that the fighter is very weak all around when compared to the paladin, less sustain/tanking, less dmg output, less options in and out if combat. So all around the fighter loses. If the fighter can only do one thing he should atleast be the best at that one thing...right?

 

[DaveDash]

Ht

Our run to level 16 with a fighter and paladin in the same group, the paladin was far more useful than the fighter without the player attempting to optimize. A sword and board Vengeance paladin brought a lot more to the table than a fighter. Fighters hit things. Paladins fill a lot more gaps. The saving throw aura alone was a huge lifesaver. The ability to heal came in handy many times either keeping the paladin alive or getting someone else back on his feet. Smiting with hold person or hold monster way better than fighter hitting it. The paladin receives a lot of useful spells as well. The fighter does more consistent damage. The both nova pretty well. Once damage is taken out of the equation, the paladin wins everywhere else.

This mirrors my experience.

To the OP:

The Fighter (if ranged) can pump out consistently high damage, however the Paladin is more useful to the party overall. If I had a gp for each time the Paladins aura has saved the party for example, then I'd be a rich mean.

My group also spams Hold Person/Monster which enables the Paladin to do serious damage, I'm talking upwards of 170 damage in a round when he really wants to nova.

The frenzy Barbarian can do a lot on paper, but my experience with him in combat is that he is too easy to debuff (fear etc), and put him out of the fight. Again this is another reason why the Paladin is awesome - have you seen how many monsters proc fear in the MM?

I have little experience with the monk.

One thing maths like this never takes into account is moving around the battlefield and its effects on DPR. This is what makes high level archer fighters so deadly. I recorded the DPR of similar built ranged vs melee Fighters over a few encounters and the ranged DPR actual tends to be double due to this.
In a combat that lasts 3-4 rounds, one round spent moving into position is a DPR loss of 25-33%. This effects Paladins, Frenzy Barbs, Monks, and Melee Fighters all equally, but puts ranged fighters out way ahead in terms of damage only.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Hey emdw45. They are not fighting each other, and the fighter has shield mastery as feat. Battlemaster stuff is rippost, distracting strike and menacing strike. We are talking more along the line of filling rolls in the party. The problem is that the fighter is very weak all around when compared to the paladin, less sustain/tanking, less dmg output, less options in and out if combat. So all around the fighter loses. If the fighter can only do one thing he should atleast be the best at that one thing...right?

I noticed the Shield Mastery feat, but since he's a fighter he should have one additional feat that he got at 6th level, which the paladin doesn't have.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying that they're not fighting each other. Menacing strike is a pretty good defensive ability, and distracting strike could be useful for making sure the paladin hits. You'd have to ask the fighter's PC what he's trying to be the best at, but it appears to be "best at protecting people and working in a team." He's clearly not built to be a solo character (or he wouldn't have taken distracting strike in the first place) so it's not fair to measure him in isolation. Is his player happy with him? If not, I can suggest some choices that would improve him, but even as-is he already has a better AC and more attacks than the paladin, and he's probably going to be better than the paladin at fighting off a horde of kobolds. The paladin is a better healer, but his healing is more valuable when he spends it on the fighter instead of himself. For example, 55 HP of healing negates 53 kobold-rounds of attacks on the paladin, but 63 kobold-rounds of attacks on the fighter. Ergo the fighter should be on the front line for fights with kobolds.

Edited to add: the difference would be even larger if they'd both put on plate armor. In that case, the paladin would get 63 kobold-rounds and the fighter would get 84.

Edit2: you asked for someone to "run the numbers" and I'm willing to, if you specify what numbers you want run. Solo fights or kobold hordes? Something else?

 

[Cortrillion]

Thanks a lot again, emdw45. The reason the fighter dos not have a level 6 feat is that they are only level 5 "in real life", and i don't know what feat the fighter will pick.

Sidetrack.
To me the feats look completely out of balance, most blatantly is the Great Weapon Master, Heavy armor Master (looks like the strongest feat in the game by far, and for some insane reason it also gives +1 str on top) and Polearm Master. There is no equivalent feat for the other weapons, except ranged weapons and crossbow, forcing players onto the railroad of Great weapon polearm or range/offhand crossbow. Anyway that was again for a different thread (the one called "WTF is this? Early access? why is the book only ½ way done?")

Anyway, I do agree emdw45, the main problem is that the paladin already has alot of the equipment he needs to do his job (a 2 hander) and the fighter can make use of one more part, the shield. Also it looks like the shield mastery push + attack round +action surge + combat superiority dice can really spike up the damage on a single target. Also it has to be noted that the paladin is going for the "play to win" approach where the warrior is more of a "fit the feats to story and personality". One thing that scares me is if the paladin keeps it up and multiclass to a priest after level 6. 14 levels of priest is insane for a paladin, No lose in combat power, rather a huge gain depending on path taken and the cleric gains divine smite on one attack pr. round. Add to that a lot of casting power and a level 9 smite hits for +10d8 damage. Pal6/clr14 nets +94d8 smite damage from spells over 22 attacks = 19,2 damage extra pr. attack, but with the maximum of +45 damage on a single hit. 22 attacks would be 11 rounds of combat, assuming all attacks hit and no crits (+5 to the first 20 attacks from Sacred weapon and +10 to hit to two attacks that miss from divine guidance. Taking into account the great weapon mastery neg5 to hit and +10 damage, but not counting great weapon fighting as one can argue about the effect working on smites, we end at average 1005 damage over 11 rounds vs a test dummy.
Looking at the warrior I get the numbers for a level 20 battle master, with a onehander, using dueling and action surge to gain more attacks, assuming all attacks hit and using all superiority dice it would be 57.9 average damage pr. round, totaling 637 damage over 11 round vs test dummy. Just about 60% of the damage the paladin deals. With the warrior having none of the extra abilities the paladin has.

This is of cause not even close the a real situation. But as the thread is about balance, I would love it if one of you (@emdw45) would look at the numbers.
Lets say vs the minotaurs from above.

Fighter Battlemaster having str: 20, con: 20, sing a battleaxe (dueling) and a shield,in plate armor and having the feats, Shield master, Heavy armor master, Sentinel and Tough.

Fighter Champion str: 20, con: 20, using a great sword (Great weapon fighting), in plate armor and having the feats, Great weapon master, Heavy armor master, Sentinel and Tough.

The paladin Oath of Devotion, having str: 20, Con: 16, Cha: 20, using a great maul (Great weapon fighting) and plate armor, Having the feats, Heavy armor master, Great weapon master and sentinel.

Paladin/cleric Oath of Devotion/ war (whatever) str: 20, Con: 16, Cha: 20, using a great maul (Great weapon fighting) and plate armor, Having the feats, Heavy armor master, Great weapon master and sentinel.

I would think the paladin/cleric would win out by a significant amount and that the pure paladin would also beat out the battle master and the champion. Maybe some one what to throw in some polearm? This is a lot of work, but the tread is about balance and I do think that you need to look at the best of the class and not just the average.
Dnd being what it is, one cant really have a roll playing bounce, but for a dice rolling perspective there is a lot of balancing to be done. As i always say, you cant be overpowered or underpowered when looking at the adventure game and the enemies you face, you can only be so vs. the rest of the player group.

TL;TR: Wall of text.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Okay, here's some basic numbers for a level STR 18 5 GWM paladin (no smiting) vs. a STR 18 level 5 Shield Master battlemaster (no superiority dice usage). I put the script up here if you want to tweak STR score/number of minotaurs/AC/HP/feats/etc. Because it's a Monte Carlo sim, the numbers could be slightly off compared to the closed-form mathematical solution, but since I ran each combat 10,000 times they should be close enough that you won't notice a difference in play.

http://www.tryfsharp.org/create/maxwilson/GWMFighterCompare.fsx (requires Silverlight; doesn't work in Chrome)

Note four things about this combat:
* My minotaurs do not use their reckless attack. This is a best case for the Shield Master fighter because trust me, when they use it, it's even worse for the shield guy because his AC is worth less and the GWM guy hits more. (I ran the numbers both ways.)
* Shield guy is using his shield to knock prone before making any attacks (granting advantage), and then if there is only one opponent, and that opponent is prone, he is backing away 30 feet. The minotaur gets an opportunity attack on him from the prone position but then cannot attack him next turn (only has 20 movement after getting up), so the net effect is that successful push = minotaur gets disadvantage on next attack.
* I am including bonus action attacks for the GWM guy on a crit or kill. They go towards the next minotaur who is still alive.
* The setup is that he fights N number of minotaurs (e.g. one minotaur at a time, or three minotaurs at a time), and then as soon as that fight is over, fights again and again until he dies. Then I average how long he lasted and how many minotaurs he killed before dying.

// Shield Mastery fighter vs. 1 Minotaur not using Reckless Attack
analyze (10000, 18, true, false, true, 1, 7, fun (roll) -> d(1, 8) + 4 + if roll = 20 then d(1,8) else 0)
Average total damage before dying: 204.6, killing 2.1 minotaurs over 19.8 rounds with 10.31 DPR.

// GWM paladin vs. 1 Minotaur not using Reckless Attack
analyze (10000, 16, false, true, true, 1, 7, fun (roll) -> d(1, 12) + 4 + if roll = 20 then d(1,12) else 0)
Average total damage before dying: 267.4, killing 2.6 minotaurs over 16.0 rounds with 16.68 DPR.

// GWM paladin using Power Attack vs. 1 Minotaur not using Reckless Attack
analyze (10000, 16, false, true, true, 1, 2, fun (roll) -> d(1, 12) + 14 + if roll = 20 then d(1,12) else 0)
Average total damage before dying: 412.4, killing 4.0 minotaurs over 18.2 rounds with 22.69 DPR.

// Shield Mastery fighter vs. 3 Minotaurs not using Reckless Attack
analyze (10000, 18, true, false, true, 3, 7, fun (roll) -> d(1, 8) + 4 + if roll = 20 then d(1,8) else 0)
Average total damage before dying: 68.4, killing 0.4 minotaurs over 6.5 rounds with 10.58 DPR.

// GWM paladin vs. 3 Minotaurs not using Reckless Attack
analyze (10000, 16, false, true, true, 3, 7, fun (roll) -> d(1, 12) + 4 + if roll = 20 then d(1,12) else 0)
Average total damage before dying: 87.8, killing 0.6 minotaurs over 5.0 rounds with 17.41 DPR.

// GWM paladin using Power Attack vs. 3 Minotaurs not using Reckless Attack
analyze (10000, 16, false, true, true, 3, 2, fun (roll) -> d(1, 12) + 14 + if roll = 20 then d(1,12) else 0)
Average total damage before dying: 152.1, killing 1.3 minotaurs over 5.9 rounds with 25.92 DPR.

I encourage you to play around with the script if you want to evaluate different levels, but I wanted to highlight two things about the results:

1.) Minotaurs are a particularly bad opponent for the shield guy. He is barely more survivable than the GWM guy (lasts 19 rounds before dying, vs. 18.2 for GWM guy) and he does less than half the damage over that time.

2.) If you ever fight three minotaurs at the same time, it doesn't matter whether you've got Shield Mastery or GWM or Heavy Armor Mastery or what. Just run away because they're going to kill you!