Barbarian Charge Question

[Kaledor]

So the question has come up:

My Barbarian has not acted yet this turn.
He is granted a free basic attack from an ally's power (free action)
He hits and kills his target.
Can he then use his Swift Charge power (free action triggered off of killing a target with an attack)?
If he can use the Charge, can he also then use Howling Strike (the automatic substitute for a charge's basic melee).

One side said: yes, you can have as many free actions as you want.
One side said: no, you can only get one free attack (the one granted by the ally)

Thoughts?

 

[Ktulu]

I believe the current rules states that you may use one free action per turn. could be wrong, though.

Ah! here it is: From the rules on free action

Free actions take almost no time or effort. You can take as many free actions as you want during your or another combatant’s turn. There is an exception to that rule: A creature can take a free action to use an attack power only once per turn.

 

[Kaledor]

Yeah, that must be where the NOs were getting there info...


I just pointed this thread out to one of my players (standing over my shoulder... I can't say anyhting bad about her ) She's one of my rules lawyers (more like rules "law-student" <-- hope she doesn't see that). She tells me that the Charge is not an actual "Attack Action" and is specifically listed separately from the Attack Action in the "Standard Action" entry (just like Second Wind is listed separately from Attack Action and Charge Action in the Standard Action entry). hmmm... makes things a bit more interesting now.

I would think that since the Charge ENDS in an attack (in this case the Howling Strike) that Charge Action would be considered an attack and thus not allowed in the "no multiple free attack actions" line. And 'heck, if you're attacking someone, it's an attack action (seems pretty clear to me) But then why include it as something different from an Attack Action.

(Personally, I'm inclined to believe the NOs here... but I include the other side of the arguement for discussion's sake... and b/c she's telling me to lol)

 

[Nullzone]

RAW says Charge is an attack action; you move up to your speed and make a melee basic attack against the target, or bull rush it; in either case you are performing an offensive technique against them.

 

[Dalamar]

Well, the first thing we need to figure out if the first basic attack you did was a free action. Commander's Strike, for example, is not a free action for the barbarian; you just make a melee basic attack.

Then to the more specific question: in my games, I allow this. First of all, the players find it just cool to see the barbarian dashing across the battle field. Second, Swift Charge is a barbarian feature, not a barbarian attack. It has an effect of "you charge", not "you can charge as a free action". Thus, in my opinion, it is not a free action attack and doesn't trigger the clause of only one free action attack per turn.

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

I think that sounds, at least, defensible. And heck, it's not every battle the barbarian gets to be the one to reduce an enemy to 0 hp. I wonder what other powers have similar wording.

 

[Aulirophile]

Rules:

You get as many free actions at any time as you want, limited only my DM fiat.

You can use one free action attack power per turn.

So ask yourself the question: Is Swift Charge an Attack Power? The answer is no, it is a class feature power. How to Read a Power, PHB 1/2/3.

Worth noting that the Rampage is a Free Action Attack Power (it specifically modifies an MBA from Standard > Free) so if you crit on the Charge you wouldn't get your MBA.

 

[Nullzone]

Rules:

You get as many free actions at any time as you want, limited only my DM fiat.

You can use one free action attack power per turn.

So ask yourself the question: Is Swift Charge an Attack Power? The answer is no, it is a class feature power. How to Read a Power, PHB 1/2/3.

Worth noting that the Rampage is a Free Action Attack Power (it specifically modifies an MBA from Standard > Free) so if you crit on the Charge you wouldn't get your MBA.

Hmm, I'm not sure about that...

Free Action

Free actions take almost no time or effort. You can take as many free actions as you want during your or another combatant’s turn. There is an exception to that rule: A creature can take a free action to use an attack power only once per turn. Creatures don’t normally have attack powers that can be used as free actions, but some powers and other effects grant the ability to use an attack power (usually a basic attack) as a free action. For example, a character might have two different abilities that let him or her make a melee basic attack as a free action when their respective triggers occur. If both abilities are triggered on the same turn, the character can make only one of the melee basic attacks during that turn.
In certain circumstances, the DM might decide to limit the use of free actions further. For instance, if an adventurer has already used free actions during a particular turn to talk, drop things, and use a class feature, the DM might rule that the adventurer can use no more free actions during that turn.
Published in Player's Handbook 1, page(s) 267.


http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/glossary.aspx?id=118

(Emphasis mine)

So by my read, no, you still can't attack on the charge if you got a warlord MBA, though DM depending you may still be able to close the gap if you wanted to. (I wouldn't allow it, fwiw, as at that point you're just moving )

 

[Aulirophile]

I'm sure about it. Swift Charge isn't an attack power, the charge it generates is a No Action. The mistake comes from people associating "Attack" and "Attack Power" (as you are doing, in fact). The quoted passage supports me, not you, because it specifies the attacks must be made as free action and must be attack powers (there are actually attacks which are not attack powers). Swift Charge is not an attack power and doesn't make an attack as a free action, so meets neither criteria for limitation.

Welcome to ask CS. I did, the day the free action errata came out and I came up with this answer. They agreed with me.

And if the Warlord MBA didn't specify an action type it is also a No Action attack and not a free action (incidentally an unconscious Barbarian can still forced to attack with Commander's Strike, which is why there is constantly a thread in the errata forum asking for CS to be clarified), so it wouldn't have conflicted anyway.

 

[Nullzone]

I'm sure about it. Swift Charge isn't an attack power, the charge it generates is a No Action. The mistake comes from people associating "Attack" and "Attack Power" (as you are doing, in fact). The quoted passage supports me, not you, because it specifies the attacks must be made as free action and must be attack powers (there are actually attacks which are not attack powers). Swift Charge is not an attack power and doesn't make an attack as a free action, so meets neither criteria for limitation.

Welcome to ask CS. I did, the day the free action errata came out and I came up with this answer. They agreed with me.

And if the Warlord MBA didn't specify an action type it is also a No Action attack and not a free action (incidentally an unconscious Barbarian can still forced to attack with Commander's Strike, which is why there is constantly a thread in the errata forum asking for CS to be clarified), so it wouldn't have conflicted anyway.

Calm down there sparky, just having a friendly discussion here.

If you read what I quoted again, you'll note that the example specifically talks about abilities that trigger MBAs, and it rules that you only get one of those triggered MBAs. Further, if you read the block on Charge, it specifically also talks about making an MBA as part of the Charge; it's not classified separately in any way that would distinguish it. Further still, a basic attack is classified as an at-will attack power:

Basic Attack

A basic attack is an at-will attack power that everyone possesses, regardless of class. The power comes in two forms: melee and ranged. You calculate the attack bonuses of a basic attack like those of any other attack power.

When a power allows you to make a basic attack, you can make either a melee basic attack or a ranged basic attack. If a power specifically calls for a melee basic attack or a ranged basic attack, you must use that type. You use a melee basic attack to make an opportunity attack, and some powers or effects (especially warlord powers) give you the ability to make a basic attack when it isn’t your turn.

So even if the precise letter of your argument were true, the conditions would still fail on account of the fact that you are still invoking multiple free action attack powers in one turn.

Edit: Incidentally I agree with you on Commander's Strike, but the OP's scenario specifically called for a free action; however that may be assumption, so I would add here that it depends on the verbage of the ally trigger that gave the initial free attack. If it was truly a free action then you are SOL, if it didn't specify then you are free to make the Swift Charge.