D&D 5E Barbarian Duel-Wielding

[CapnZapp]

Hi,

I'm trying to put together a Drow Barbarian dancing around with two blades.

As far as I can see, I can forget about the dual-wielding until I can get her hands on the Dual Wielder feat? (Before that, attacking with 1d6+Mod in one hand and 1d6 in the other doesn't seem to give any benefit over simply mauling everything with 2d6+Mod)

Then, I gather I should give her one level of Fighter for the "Two-Weapon Fighting" Fighting Style. Thankfully, that's only a one level dip, that also provides the nifty Second Wind feature.

So, as a level 5 character (Brb 4/Ftr 1) she can hope to see 1d8+Mod in each hand.

If I understand the complex interplay between actions and attacks, I can hope for her to be able to eventually make five attacks each turn, yes?

a) With two weapons, you make two stabs/swipes each time you attack, one with each weapon.
b) At five levels in a fightery class you get to make two attacks each turn.

This makes 2*2=4. Then add frenzy from Path of the Berserker for the fifth stab/swipe.

She will then look at AC 17, assuming Con 16, Dex 16 and the +1 AC from the feat, no? It is really difficult to justify going unarmored for a barbarian in this edition (since I can't drop Strength and use twin Rapiers)



Or, am I doing this wrong? Perhaps I should make her into a Fighter, with only one level of Barbarian for that Unarmored Defense?

 

[Rilak]

First of all, you are better off taking Ftr 1 after you get Bbn 5 (for the extra attack).

Second, you have misunderstood how dual wielding works in 5e. You make one extra attack (without STR mod) with the off-hand weapon at the cost of a bonus action.
The fighting style adds the damage mod to the off-hand.
The feat (if your DM allows you to use the feat variant) allows you to use non-light weapons and gives +1 AC (so 1d8 instead of 1d6, and 1 AC).

Note that you get at most one bonus action per turn. So if you use Frenzy, you cannot use the off-hand attack and the bonus frenzy attack. Also, entering a Rage costs a bonus action. So you cannot make the extra attack from either two-weapon fighting or frenzy on the turn you enter the rage.

Thus, two-weapon fighting for Barbarian (Berserker) is pointless. A totem warrior could potentially use it, but the cost is quite high.

The maximum number of attacks you would get is 3 (1 for 5th level, 1 for frenzy or two-weapon fighting).

 

[charliebananas]

Using two weapons, the second attack is a bonus action and you get just one bonus action per turn, so with two attacks per turn and a off hand weapon you would get three attacks - two attacks + bonus action attack, Frenzy is also a bonus action so you have to make a choice between off-hand attack or frenzy.

 

[Stalker0]

One other note, is that the rage damage bonus DOES apply to TWF attacks. So even without the ability mod it at 1st level it would be:

1d6+4, 1d6+2 vs 2d6+6. Effectively even, but TWF gets you more crit chances and more flexibility.

 

[Paraxis]

I would go with polearm master feat. You get the two attacks d10+str mod+rage & d4+str mod+rage, AoO's when enemies come within 10' of you, reach on both attacks, I mean polearms are the king of melee.

 

[Leatherhead]

nm that.

 

[Dausuul]

As others have said, dual wielding with a barbarian is tough. You don't have access to the Two-Weapon Fighting style, so you don't get Dex to your off hand; you don't get your off-hand attack on the first round since you have to use your bonus action to hulk out; and you can't combine with frenzy.

Still, it's not impossible, and there are upsides. First of all, you're building with Dex instead of Str, which means you can have a really good unarmored AC. Second, you do get the extra attack, which means another application of your rage bonus, and you don't have to pay the frenzy penalty. Third, you get major cool points.

How committed are you to being a drow? Assuming your DM lets you use the optional variant, being a human would let you have Dual Wielder at level 1; and while you only get +1 Dexterity, you can put the other +1 into Constitution. That Charisma boost isn't doing much for you. I'm on the fence about whether it's worth a 1-level dip into fighter or ranger. That would get you Two-Weapon Fighting, which is a big boost to your off hand; but since you don't even get the off-hand attack on your first round, I'm not convinced it's worth delaying all your barbarian abilities.

 

[Mandragola]

I don't have my book on me but I remember trying to build a dex-based barbarian and hitting a really solid brick wall. I think it was that you only add rage damage when you're attacking using strength as your attribute. It was something not immediately obvious like that, but I definitely remember feeling that it made the exercise pointless.

I honestly can't see a drow DW barbarian coming anywhere near to something like a DW fighter/rogue. Say using the assassin's ability to make all attacks in the first round crit combined with a fighter's two attacks and action surge, plus maybe some superiority dice. I think a really devastating drow dual wielded is possible, but not as a barbarian.

 

[Juriel]

TWF + Rage combine well enough, even without the fighting style, because that's an extra hit to add the Rage bonus to.

As such, one should not multiclass out of Barb before lv5 and the second attack.

It just really does not work for Dex primary.

 

[Fion]

I'm playing in a game soon and have decided upon a duel-wielding Drow Fighter/Bladelock myself. It's not the sharpest build ever, nor the most powerful but with Thirsting Blade at lvl 5 (so long as that level is a Warlock level) I can make 3 attacks per turn. 2 with primary, one with offhand as a bonus action. I'm thinking Eldritch Knight so I can get Weapon Bond and have 2 weapons 'bound' to me... that or Battlemaster for some extra battlefield control.

And yes, I'm still home this morning so looking through the PHB, rage damage bonus is Strength only. Just one more piece of evidence that I'm finding that 5e isn't all that good at accommodating that idea in your head for a character, especially if that idea duel wields. Guess that's why I'm more a Savage Worlds fan than D&D. In SW if you can imagine it, you can build it and it'll rock. Good news is you can still duel wield with a Strength build (primary-Barb), you'll just want that feet sooner rather than later so your not stuck with light weapons. Granted that makes Drow less than advantageous but hey.

 

[GameDoc]

I think the Barbarian's Unarmored Defense wasn't necessarily intended to promote high Dex (although tis a viable way to go), so much as emphasize Constitution and reflect the toughness of the typical barbarian. It allows a high Con score to replace the need other warrior classes have for armor, particularly when you consider the way higher Con increases HP on the barbarians already larger hit dice and rage grants damage resistance.

By comparison, Str-basted fighters' AC is primarily a function of armor and secondarily their Dex bonus. So a barbarian's effective AC can be primarily a high Con and secondarily from Dex.

You're taking about a drow barbarian so you've already broken with convention, so I don't think it's essential to think of it as a high Dex character. Emphasize strength. The barbarian class feature increase your speed and offset the hazards of moving around the battlefield as you advance. You don't have to be the best at everything your character aspires to be at 1st level.

Two weapon fighting, until you can get the feat, limits you to d6 weapons, but considering you get to roll that twice, you've mimicked great weapon damage. Forget the notion that a two-weapon warrior has to be Dex-based. Sure it's a powerful choice when combined with fines weapons, but it's not essential. Use your strength with a pair of scimitars, hand axes, or short swords until you can get a fear to upgrade to larger
ones.

What you have is an unconventional and pretty cool concept. Structure your personality traits, ideal, bond, and flaw accordingly and if your roleplay the character well, your DM should be giving you inspiration to boost your actions to mitigate any design choices that are less that optimal.

And remember bounded accuracy - suboptimal choices are not the suckfest they were in past editions.

 

[Cernor]

I know this is entirely up to how you want to play your character, but here are my thoughts on TWF Barbarians. I'm sharing because I was tempted to build a TWF barbarian once, but there were a few things that turned me off of it (and I think most of them have already been mentioned earlier in the thread).

First and foremost, since your off-hand attack is a bonus action, you only get it once per turn and it can't be used at the same time as your rage (or frenzy). This is a BIG weakness compared to 2H fighting where you enter rage and get two attacks (with higher average damage) on every turn, as opposed to having to spend a turn taking only two attacks while you rage, and then getting three attacks on subsequent turns.

Speaking of three attacks, the Path of the Berserker gives you effectively the same benefit as dual wielding: while raging (at the cost of a bonus action) you can make an extra attack by using a bonus action. Unlike dual wielding, however, you gain your ability modifier to the damage (up to a whopping +7 at 20th level) of that attack, and because you can use it with a two-handed weapon, it deals even more damage!

My second big concern with TWF is that you're pretty much required to take the Dual Wielder feat to bring your damage to a point where it can potentially rival that dealt by 2H weapons. If you're dealing 1d6 per attack (before 5th level) your ideal damage each turn is 2d6 + modifier: equal to that of a greatsword, but you have one additional roll to make and therefore one more chance to miss (as well as the aforementioned use of a bonus action). With the Dual Wielder feat, this increases to 2d8 + modifier, and after you get the Extra Attack it increases to 3d8 + 2 * modifier, which is marginally lower than the 4d6 + 2 * modifier dealt by a greatsword (1 point on average). Including rage, the damage dealt by TWF is slightly higher, but you still have the extra attack roll you could potentially miss.

So I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across as I mean to, but personally I think that TWF is slightly worse compared to 2H fighting. I admit that this is entirely my personal preference as the differences are minimal (for a Totem Warrior, quite a bit bigger for a Berserker) and the extra chance of getting a critical hit offsets the chance of missing. Oh, and because the mental image I have of a barbarian charging into battle with a massive axe in both hands is ruined a bit by replacing the axe with two daggers.

 

[sithramir]

Your rage damage bonus can be added to the second attack if you use str. That pushes TWF slightly ahead I think? Sorry on phone

 

[Cernor]

Yeah you can, but you won't always be raging. For simplicity's sake I chose to ignore it. And your lower chance to hit with every attack (ie having to make 2 rolls instead of 1) balances that extra damage out because you'll miss that many more times (theoretically. Reckless makes that less of an issue but isn't always ideal to use.)

 

[Xeterog]

First and foremost, since your off-hand attack is a bonus action, you only get it once per turn and it can't be used at the same time as your rage (or frenzy). This is a BIG weakness compared to 2H fighting where you enter rage and get two attacks (with higher average damage) on every turn, as opposed to having to spend a turn taking only two attacks while you rage, and then getting three attacks on subsequent turns.

Speaking of three attacks, the Path of the Berserker gives you effectively the same benefit as dual wielding: while raging (at the cost of a bonus action) you can make an extra attack by using a bonus action. Unlike dual wielding, however, you gain your ability modifier to the damage (up to a whopping +7 at 20th level) of that attack, and because you can use it with a two-handed weapon, it deals even more damage!

My second big concern with TWF is that you're pretty much required to take the Dual Wielder feat to bring your damage to a point where it can potentially rival that dealt by 2H weapons. If you're dealing 1d6 per attack (before 5th level) your ideal damage each turn is 2d6 + modifier: equal to that of a greatsword, but you have one additional roll to make and therefore one more chance to miss (as well as the aforementioned use of a bonus action). With the Dual Wielder feat, this increases to 2d8 + modifier, and after you get the Extra Attack it increases to 3d8 + 2 * modifier, which is marginally lower than the 4d6 + 2 * modifier dealt by a greatsword (1 point on average). Including rage, the damage dealt by TWF is slightly higher, but you still have the extra attack roll you could potentially miss.

Two handed fighting will pump out the most damage, but it looks like to me that TWF is not that far behind. It does have some advantages as well.

1) AC is better after you take the TWF feat
2) You always get the bonus action to attack, except on the 1st turn of rage (once you get the feat, use a versatile weapon like a longsword or a battle axe two-handed for a little more damage on that round). With Frenzy, you also have this problem--in addition to the level of exhaustion that occurs after it, so you probably won't use frenzy more than once a day (twice at most I would think). With GWM, you only get the extra bonus attack if you crit or take an opponent to 0HP, which might be often but it will not be every round.
3) With more attacks, you can potentially engage more targets.
4) less chance of over kill

Personally, I kinda like the idea of a (almost)naked dwarf barbarian wielding 2 battle axes (Kind of reminds me of troll slayers and the DPR, though lower, is acceptable. Probably best to go Barbarian 5/Fighter 4/barbarian 11 to get the most out of it

 

[Cernor]

1) AC is better after you take the TWF feat

On the one hand, since you'd probably be exclusively TWFing, you'd usually have that +1. On the other hand, you could get +2 to Dex to increase AC, or +1 Dex (if already on an odd number) and +1 Str/Con instead of taking that feat. and gain a +1 regardless (or +2 if hitting even Con and Dex scores). Or build your Dex to be an odd number so that you can get a feat which gives +1 Dex (Athlete or the like) and get that feat's effects as well as the +1 AC. Again, a personal preference rather than clear-cut "Option X is better."

2) You always get the bonus action to attack, except on the 1st turn of rage (once you get the feat, use a versatile weapon like a longsword or a battle axe two-handed for a little more damage on that round). With Frenzy, you also have this problem--in addition to the level of exhaustion that occurs after it, so you probably won't use frenzy more than once a day (twice at most I would think). With GWM, you only get the extra bonus attack if you crit or take an opponent to 0HP, which might be often but it will not be every round.

I agree that the extra attack granted by GWM isn't going to be every turn, especially against bigger enemies as opposed to swarms. However, if taking GWM>DW, the biggest benefit will be the -5 to hit in exchange for +10 to damage. Reckless Attack offsets the penalty somewhat, making it a semi-reliable damage increase rather than a situational gamble. Also, keep in mind that if you're using rage on the first turn of combat and have DW (if I understand the rules correctly), you can go move --> rage (bonus action) --> attack with 2H weapon [x2 at level 5+] (action) --> sheathe 2H weapon, draw two 1H weapons (environmental interaction). If you're using a versatile weapon, the only change is that you wouldn't have to sheathe the first weapon, and you have a slightly lower potential damage.

3) With more attacks, you can potentially engage more targets.

Umm... Barbarians aren't really made for engaging multiple targets. Beating the hell out of one target until it dies is where they shine. Controlling crowds is best left to spellcasters, because of things like Entangle and Sleep.

4) less chance of over kill

Higher chance of underkill, requiring your extra attack(s) to finish them off. One of my friends plays a TWF ranger (despite taking archery fighting style), and the biggest problem he has is missing his MH attack and so without the bonus on his OH attack he fails to kill things... which then continue eating his party, which has almost caused TPKs multiple times. This also shows up with barbarians, unless you multiclass to get the fighting style... But the problem with multiclassing is that you then don't get the 20th-level bonus: raging an unlimited number of times a day (very nice) and getting +4 to Str and Con. This gives you +2 to AC, as well as +2 to every attack and damage roll you make. If you make 3 attacks per turn as a TWF you get a maximum of +6 damage from the 20th level boost, compared to a maximum of +5 by multiclassing to get the TWF style. Just a thought.