Barbarian is up!!!

[Kishin]

With this and the spellsword class, I think we're seeing a definite power creep, and it's one that's already starting very early on.

The Swordmage deals the lowest damage of -any- class out there I would wager right now, and one of its build options (Assault swordmage) is pretty suboptimal for its designated Defender role. It has a lot of tricks and mobility, is fantastic at AoEing and clearing out minions (A trait it shares with the Barbarian) and its defense orientated mark (aegis of shielding) is rather good, but I don't think it outpaces either the Fighter or the Paladin in the stickiness department, and it certainly has nowhere near the capacity for damage the Fighter does.

Barbarians, due to chainmail, start off inherently with one less feat

Technically, so did Druids in 3.5 because they had to take Natural Spell. ;P

 

[Runestar]

If we have an inspiring warlord in the party, that is another potential +9 damage (assuming 28int) per hit. Though the downside is that vs a foe with resist, that is a total of 60 damage resisted (10 per hit).

Seems a little disturbing that barbs are all but encouraged to eventually go for fullplate. Runs a little counter to the way I envisioned one, but apparently a necessity, since they will likely be dumping dex...

 

[Andor]

Multiclassing-

I can see Bards primarily MCing into Fighter in order to get that lovely stance/rage synergy, also their other build option makes Warlocks a definite possibility. They have the con/chr stat synergy and Warlock can provide the ranged attacks and utility mojo they otherwise lack.

Plus it's just got cool RPing potential. "Hah! I'm across the chasm, your spirits can't help you now barbarian!" "I deal with darker spirits than most." *Diabolic Grasp* "Aiiieeee!"

Contriwise I can definitely see Two-sword rangers dipping into Barb for Raging goodness. Not sure who else it would appeal to. Fighters perhaps.

 

[Zerovoid]

I hope someone didn't already post this earlier in the thread, but there is a way to rewrite the Rage Strike ability that might be easier to understand, and alleviate some of the complaints about "getting a class ability that you can't use".

Eliminate the Rage Strike At-Will power. Its totally gone.

For all the Rages above 1st level, add some sort of text to the power similar this:
Special: If you are already raging when you use this power, instead of manifesting this power's rage, you may choose to have this power deal +2[W] damage.

Now, it wouldn't always be 2[W] damage, but you could choose bonus damage values to match the original values from Rage Strike.

(OK, I finally got to page 7 of the thread, and I see that somebody already suggested something like this.)

 

[Jack99]

Thoughts on Barbarians, mostly parroting what others have said:

- With this and the spellsword class, I think we're seeing a definite power creep, and it's one that's already starting very early on.
- Lots of stuff here is poorly written, and I think there's one in particular we're ALL talking about. Even if you personally don't see a problem with it, it's pretty obvious that a lot of people do.

First of all, its Swordmage. Second of all, maybe you should start parroting some other people, because frankly, they have little clue what they are talking about. Or maybe you should play some 4e ><

Swordmage is definitely not broken nor overpowered, and thus not the result of a powercreep. If you have other info, please point me to where there is such a consensus (or anything ressembling that). And from the initial debate about the Barbarian, it definitely doesn't seem he is either. Sure, maybe there is one or two powers that need fixing, but that is not the same as being overpowered.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Swordmage is definitely not broken nor overpowered, and thus not the result of a powercreep. If you have other info, please point me to where there is such a consensus (or anything ressembling that). And from the initial debate about the Barbarian, it definitely doesn't seem he is either. Sure, maybe there is one or two powers that need fixing, but that is not the same as being overpowered.

welll I will agree I do not at this time feel swordmage is overpowered...it is too new to say for sure. Ask again around Dec when everyone playing one has put it through it's paces...then we can talk power creep.

As for Barbarian, there is NO way to be sure from a beta half class, but it does give us some ideas...since it went up today...well yesterday now lets give it a few weeks. Even if someone made one at midnight, they at most played 1 maybe 2 games with it. Lets see how it holds up with Playing...not reading

 

[Rechan]

4) Striker with defender hitpoints. I absolutely applaud this. I do NOT want the classes to become so straightjacketed by rules that we sacrifice good class design for conformity. This was the problem with monsters in 3e, writers found it hard to make good monsters that had to conform to the formula.

Now I'm not saying the barbarian is currently balanced with defender HP, but I'm sure it could be. But I do not want roles to become the tomb for good class design, and I'm pleased to see WOTC is willing to push the envelope a bit on this one.

Indeed.

In fact, take a look at the Swordmage as another example of this:

Defender
HP: 15+Con Score
HP per level: 6
Healing Surges per day: 8 + Con mod.

Armor prof: Cloth, leather
Weapon Prof: Simple melee, military heavy and light blades, simple ranged.

Compare to the Fighter: +1 Healing Surge, Prof in armor up to scale, all shields, all military melee and ranged weapons.
Compare to the Paladin: +2 Healing surges, prof in all armors/shields, all military weapons, +1 to all non AC defenses.

In fact, looking at the barbarian, their stats are very similar to the Swordmage. Same HP/Surges, limited armor, and only military/simple melee weapons.

 

[Vael]

I hope someone didn't already post this earlier in the thread, but there is a way to rewrite the Rage Strike ability that might be easier to understand, and alleviate some of the complaints about "getting a class ability that you can't use".

Eliminate the Rage Strike At-Will power. Its totally gone.

For all the Rages above 1st level, add some sort of text to the power similar this:
Special: If you are already raging when you use this power, instead of manifesting this power's rage, you may choose to have this power deal +2[W] damage.

Now, it wouldn't always be 2[W] damage, but you could choose bonus damage values to match the original values from Rage Strike.

(OK, I finally got to page 7 of the thread, and I see that somebody already suggested something like this.)

There are 7 levels of Daily powers, averaging 3-4 powers per level, and you want to add 2-3 lines of practically identical text to all of them, when one power will suffice?

I really don't see the problem with Rage Strike, it's a rather simple mechanic to me, nor do I consider the fact that you can't use it until level 5 a problem. That said, I don't mind removing the requirement that you be in a rage from it.

 

[Ondo]

Personally, I see two issues with Rage Strike - it's inelegant, and it replaces your coolest powers with something very boring.

I'd suggest, as others have, that they add text to every daily that gives an additional option if you are already in a rage; however, rather than duplicating the current functionality of Rage Strike, make the attack different and flavorful for each power. For example, Frost Wolf Rage might do 4W cold damage; Swift Panther Rage might be usable as part of a charge, and so forth.

Also, out of curiosity, what would break if rages just stacked?

 

[kevtar]

My bad

I'm against.

1. If I'm using something, its not unused.

2. This sort of "hidden function" to an ability, based entirely on one possible interpretation of one word amongst many other words, is almost always not the authors intent.

This is swordmage handjive all over again. Sorry.

Yeah, I read my original post again and realized I had written it was "not an unused rage." I meant it was an unused rage. I've clarified the original claim. Where's my editor!