Barbarian is up!!!

[I'm A Banana]

Flawed analogy, because the two-year-old already has a cookie, and so do all his two-year-old friends. Giving this two-year-old a second cookie wouldn't be fair to the other two year olds. Rage Strike is more like giving a syringe of insulin to a diabetic with a cookie, so that when he eats his second cookie after dinner (along with, once again, all his little two-year-old friends) he doesn't go into a diabetic coma and die.

The analogy isn't flawed, you're just kind of missing the thrust of it.

I'm not arguing about balance at all.

I'm arguing against an ability that is worthless for four levels. Against dead weight on the character sheet.

If you have an ability, you should be able to use it.

If you can't use it, you shouldn't have it.

I understand that this is "like" getting another feature at 5th level, but that's part of what I see as sloppy, because it's "like" getting another feature at 5th level, but it's not getting another feature at 5th level. It's getting a useless feature at 1st level.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't see that as broken.

I just ran some quick math. Took a 30th level barb, gave him a 60% chance to hit.

Damage: d12 (greataxe) + 10 (strength) + 3 (weapon focus) + 6 (magic) + 5 (misc bonuses from powers, items, and anything else I just can't account for).

With those numbers, the barbarian is doing about the equivalent of a 8[w] attack. At 70%, it jumps to 11[w].

I should also mention I did not include crits in the calculation, and barbs do a LOT of damage on crits with their extra attack ability. So I'm sure that would bump it up to 12 or even 13[w].

For a daily that's awesome...more than likely overpowered. For an encounter, completely overpowered.

 

[amysrevenge]

...and the better option, in my mind, would be to make it so daily attacks aren't all "rages," so that he can get daily attack-caliber damage without using a kludge.

To be fair, we've only seen half the dailies at any given level... It might be that the "Thaneblood" dailies aren't rages.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I am not much of one for delving into math, so shall stick to the more fluffy side of things.

I am extremely glad they have gone the path with Primal of it being atleast for the Barbarian being based off spirits. I have always enjoyed the idea of using/communing with spirits as a form of supernatural empowerment so this is great.

It is also easy to alter for different cultures, for example. I am thinking for one campaign of mine, Barbarians will be essentially Voodoo priest/ess who have been able to summon and be possessed by Loa to do their more supernatural abilities.

One thing (and not just for Barbarians) that I have somewhat a peeve about. Is well WoTC's obsession with elements. I will probably refluff like I have done with most classes the elemental powers into other things (lots of things you can use when talking about spirits).

 

[Iron Dog]

Seems that this barbarian feels a lot like Slaine (Sláine (comics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) than Conan.

"It's time for a Warp SPASM....ARRRGGGHHHHHH!"

 

[Jack99]

I think the Rage-At-Will is ment to spent the rage (so you are no longer in that "stance") you are in, instead of expending another Daily.

So if you are raging you gain your typical bonuses from that daily until you decide to put your whole (leftover) rage into one strike but are exhausted afterwards (rage ended).

This would make more sense IMHO since you could use it from level 1 onward and would give you a meaningfull tactical choice (much damage now or rage bonuses for a few rounds more...).

We have a winner! At least that's how I read it as well..

 

[Raith5]

We've been discussing this on the Character Op boards on WOTC, and the consensus we've drawn so far:

1) Rage Strike is worthless. Sorry, yes, I said it. It encourages going Nova through your daily powers, and it's not damaging enough to really be worth sacrificing more daily powers than otherwise. One idea we're tossing around is to key Rage Strike off sacrificing healing surges, instead..

And why would you not open up an encounter with a rage daily power... every time.

 

[Starfox]

I'm worried about the 15-minuted-workday barbarian. This might be the reason they made some of the encounter powers very strong, but it is still potentially a problem. And if you do the wise thing and spend one rage/fight, you probably start the grand finale fights with fewer dailies than anyone else. A tricky situation.

That's a power I thought of when I was musing about martial controllers. It seems thematically appropriate for a barbarian but not mechanically appropriate for a striker (especially one that has to charge across that terrain to do damage!).

I feel this barbarian is very close to a controller. And I like that. Attacks over wide areas, very strong knockdown abilities which are a form of control. It does kind of break the Striker mold, tough.

look at the other striker classes. Warlock, Ranger AND Rogue all get extra damage die. Barbs don't.

With no striker bonus damage dice, the powers of the barbarian become very tempting to multi-class into. I wonder if that's why they didn't include a MC feat? Seriously, they will probably change this, bake much of the extra damage into a class ability instead of directly into the powers. The extra attack on a critical tries to look like striker bonus damage but really is too unreliable to count.

 

[Vendark]

1) Rage Strike is worthless. Sorry, yes, I said it. It encourages going Nova through your daily powers,

No, it allows going nova through your daily powers, which is something any other class can do. A barbarian still isn't likely to want to go through his dailies on Rage Strike because then he loses out on his sweet rage buffs for the rest of the day. But if a barbarian player feels that he absolutely needs to be able to drop an enemy right now, he shouldn't feel barred from doing so in a way that no other class experiences.

and it's not damaging enough to really be worth sacrificing more daily powers than otherwise.

You're sort of contradicting yourself. I don't see how it can both a) encourage people to blow through their dailies and b) not be worth spending a daily on.

One idea we're tossing around is to key Rage Strike off sacrificing healing surges, instead.

This is just a different way to nova. A barbarian who's blown all his healing surges on Rage Strike is going to want to rest just as much if not more than a barbarian who's run out of dailies doing the same thing.

 

[Gladius Legis]

No, it allows going nova through your daily powers, which is something any other class can do. A barbarian still isn't likely to want to go through his dailies on Rage Strike because then he loses out on his sweet rage buffs for the rest of the day. But if a barbarian player feels that he absolutely needs to be able to drop an enemy right now, he shouldn't feel barred from doing so in a way that no other class experiences.

Yeah, sacrifice a Rage attack (which is already good damage, anyway) for an attack that isn't much more damaging than what the Rage attack already is. News flash: 9[W] with no rider effects or buffs is NOT that impressive.

Put it this way: Using Rage Strike instead of an actual Rage power is like a Lv. 29 Fighter selecting No Mercy instead of Force the Battle. And EVERYONE knows that's a dumb decision.

You're sort of contradicting yourself. I don't see how it can both a) encourage people to blow through their dailies and b) not be worth spending a daily on.

Ever hear of traps? Rage Strike is the ultimate example of that. Looks exciting at first glance, but is really a pile of suck.

So, no, it's not a contradiction.

This is just a different way to nova. A barbarian who's blown all his healing surges on Rage Strike is going to want to rest just as much if not more than a barbarian who's run out of dailies doing the same thing.

Not really, particularly with a good CON modifier. And it won't be a trap.

 

[Kirnon_Bhale]

[I too am in the worried about going Nova through Rage Striking but at the same time I like the way Dailies mimic Raging for a Barbarian. This is my off the cuff solution that I would love people to dissect.

Rage Strike – Turn it into the opposite of the clerics healing word. Minor action use a surge deal damage equal to surge +2d6. (Increase to 3d6 and 5d6 as per Rogue) Only usable when in a rage useable twice an encounter. Only useable once per round. Not usable same turn as Daily??? (unsure)

This would mean that the Barbarian can’t do bonus damage as often makes him think twice about doing due to his loss of surges – also doesn’t encourage Rage Nova’s. He will do less bonus damage round by round but when he does do it, it will be impressive. The median damage of the surge is pretty much on a par with a d12 weapon barbarian – minus the striker bonus damage.

This I think would solve the multiclass problem – although I was thinking that it might be useful to restrict barbarian powers to two handed attacks only. This would help prevent AC busting Barbarians by restricting shields a little.

My third thought was regarding Dailies. Why don’t the effects stack and would it be completely unbalancing if they did? This frees the Barbarian from only optimally being able to use one Rage per encounter but isn’t a no brainer thus as with all classes He can go Nova or not – and would be a nice way of showing him getting even more enraged if he does happen to use a couple in a single combat. If the effects would require a slight nerf because of this then surely while it is being worked on it could.

While I am sure that there are a number of holes in my idea – On the surface it would look to have some merit. Less often with the extra damage but it’ll hurt when it is used and at a cost.

 

[Leatherhead]

I am not too keen on the way the class is set up. The Barbarian is a striker, but the extra striker damage is more incorporated into their evocations instead of their extra damage class feature (rampage). Mostly because rampage only happens once in twenty rolls or so, instead of nearly every round like the other striker features. This would be fine but quirky if they existed in a vacuum, but think of the multi-classing problems it can cause when a ranger (or even perhaps another future melee striker that uses two handed weapons) gets their hands on some barbarian evocations.

Oh yeah, for the quick fix:
Evocations do less damage, Rampage triggers nearly once a round. Off the top of my head I would say it could even work as an extra melee basic attack per round when you manage to hit an enemy, but maybe just an extra attack that deals 1[W] damage(2[W] at level 21+) without any stat bonuses would keep them "in line but different."

 

[Saben]

The reason I'm not comfortable with Barb where it is right now, is because of how off and on it seems compared to other classes. When you rage, you are uber for the entire encounter, even your at-wills become uber and if you choose you can even UBER BURST with Rage Strike.

The rest of the time... well, even your at-wills are worse. This means the class leans towards being able to nova 3 times per day and being sub-par the rest of the time. I could be wrong, but I just get the feeling that the class is the worst offender in that regard... I mean, a Wizard's at-wills aren't as good as a Ranger's, but he has better Dailies to make up for it. But I think the Barbarian takes this too much to the extreme.

 

[Ulrik]

[I too am in the worried about going Nova through Rage Striking but at the same time I like the way Dailies mimic Raging for a Barbarian. This is my off the cuff solution that I would love people to dissect.

I think it's best to just regard Rage Strike as a patch to make up for the fact that rages don't stack. So it should really just be ignored, until you feel like you really should use another daily in this combat. It doesn't look like a core feature. Removing it would, in the vast majority of cases, not make the barbarian sub-par.

I think the problem is presentation, it's presented as a class feature which looks pretty prominent, when it's more on the level of Wizard cantrips. The class is designed to function just fine without it in something like 80% or 90% of all adventuring days, so attempting to "fix" it by making it do something else is pretty pointless. If it's really that much of a distraction it should rather be removed.

The issue of multclassing is more worrying, but isn't mc'ing one of the areas lacking in playtest? I also heard it mentioned here on these boards that it was implemented through feats partially so it could easily be replaced. Perhaps PHBII introduces a new system for multiclassing. Which would be welcome if the current system places so severe restrictions on class design that all strikers *have to* have bonus damage, which is what is being argued here.

 

[Ulrik]

The reason I'm not comfortable with Barb where it is right now, is because of how off and on it seems compared to other classes. When you rage, you are uber for the entire encounter, even your at-wills become uber and if you choose you can even UBER BURST with Rage Strike.

Lots of dailies affect the entire encounter. Just by looking at the cleric, you have Beacon of Hope and Spiritual Weapon at lvl 1 and 5 respectively. +5 healing for all your powers? Makes the cleric much better at his job, for that encounter, once per day. Same with spiritual weapon, extra damage and reducing AC *on all attacks* for that encounter.

It's the intent of all dailies to affect the entire encounter, either through a persistent effect or huge burst damage. Barbarians are just more obvious about it with the rage effect and burst from Rage Strike.

(Of course, it may be that it's too much effect from a daily compared to other classes, it's a playtest after all I just think the basic idea is not necessarily bad.)

 

[Kirnon_Bhale]

The problem is that Rage strike does feel like a patch rather then a core feature of the barbarian. Hence my thoughts on the matter. I have been going through the rages and I can't see a problem with treating the rage differently to a stance and allowing the effects to stack, if you look at it from all sorts of angles Rage strike just seems off. It feels like it needs a change.

 

[JVisgaitis]

I don't consider an ability that I get at a level that I can't use to be beautiful or elegant.

I don't find it elegant either. Clever maybe, but not elegant. I'd rather see the ongoing affect of the existing rage spent as opposed to another daily power. You can ever power down rage strike a bit. That way its usable at first level and you don't have to go all in with dailies to use your abilities.

 

[Wonka]

I understand that this is "like" getting another feature at 5th level, but that's part of what I see as sloppy, because it's "like" getting another feature at 5th level, but it's not getting another feature at 5th level. It's getting a useless feature at 1st level.

If you cant use it until level 5, dont give it out until level 5. Problem solved, and the mechanic (which I happen to like) still works.

 

[Wormwood]

I'll be playtesting this soon, but my initial reaction toward rage strike is fairly negative. The implementation seems klunky, inelegant, and unnecessary.

There's already plenty of existing design space for 'does extra damage while raging'---I don't enjoy seeing new subsystems introduced unless they are smooth and simple.

We'll see how it works in play, of course.

 

[Tikigod]

To the half - orc guessers out there:

They will have +2 Str +2 Dex