Barbarian is up!!!

[Gunpowder]

I'll start by saying I like most of what I see, but I feel a few tweaks are needed.

My initial concern after reading it was, why wouldn't a barbarian's first feat be chain armor? Since they don't rely on Dex or Int, it seems odd. Most barbarians will feel obliged to get this feat, and even possibly follow it up with light shield and scale. That's such a boring path of feats. Since 4e is trying to get away from the auto-pick feats, I think this issue needs to be addressed.

I also don't like Rage Strike at all. It's a waste of space. There is no way I want to encourage a character to give up a daily power to nova in one encounter.

I would gut out Rage Strike (don't see any need for it), and replace it with a class feature that allows the barbarian to use their constitution or charisma as an AC bonus instead of dexterity or intelligence, if they are wearing light armor. This puts them on par with two weapon rangers and warlocks.

If the intent was to make it so Barbarians are easier to hit, but can absorb more damage (as the class description seems to indicate), then the class is not going to work as is. Chain armor is way too tempting to resist, though I guess this isn't terribly different than the wizard and leather armor.

I don't have a problem with the way Howling Strike works aside from paragon multiclassing concerns. That part can easily be fixed by imposing some sort of requirement without changing the mechanics.

This class also suffers from "everyone can do it but dragonborn can do it better" syndrome.

Rage strike isnt made to encourage novaing it is used to enable novaing, like every other class can fully benefit from burning multipule dailies in an encounter. The barbarian without would override his first daily with his second. This is a problem if the first rage buff is more effective then the second but the barb still feels the need to unleash daily calibar damage.

no comment on the armor issue but on the dragonborn issue.
STATEMENT: R.I.T.M.(Rage in the machine) SURPERIOR, SCALY FLESHBAG INFERIOR.
Seriously, warforged frenzy barbs don't go down until negative bloodied. Granted when they go down they stay down forever. Also same stat bonuses and the warforged racial that heals when bloodied and gain temp HP is totally up the barbs alley

 

[Phaezen]

Just to give my reading of Rage Strike, and why it is there.

When a Barbarian uses a Rage Power (aka a daily) he gets 1. an ongoing benefit till the end of the encounter, he is dropped to zero hitpoints, or he uses another rage power. 2, He also gets bonuses on his at will powers. (Charge with no Opporunity Attacks for Howling Strike, Extra Damage for Pressing Strike and Extra temporary Hitpoints for Recuperating Strike). The main advantage of raging is the bonusses to the at wills.

Rage Strike allows the barbarian to gain the damage of using a daily power without ending the ongoing benefit his current rage power. So while it does allow the player to burn through his dailies, I don't think it will occur more often than any other class burning through thier dailies.

Phaezen

 

[Wonka]

This class also suffers from "everyone can do it but dragonborn can do it better" syndrome.

Some classes are better suited for some races than others, I fail to see a problem. Thats like telling me the artful dodger rogue suffers from "everyone can do it but halflings/drow can do it better" syndrome. Unless I am misinterpreting your statement here as a complaint when it is in fact not one.

 

[Duelpersonality]

Thoughts

Garglemesh but you guys are quick. Only got through the first two pages here, so cut me some slack if I'm bringing up "old" points.

HP: I strongly disagree with giving a striker class the HP of a defender, barbarian or no. The build they gave us gets temporary HP for dropping foes- something I don't think the barbarian will have any trouble with-and there's an at-will that drops temporary HP as well, so why give the extra HP?

At-will powers: I don't mind the damage and effectiveness of the barbarian at-will powers because of the lack of an "extra damage" striker ability. I do not count Rage Strike, as it requires the expenditure of a resource that is in very short supply, unlike sneak attack, hunter's quarry and warlock's curse. If they keep the set-up the same, the at-wills are fine.

Rage Strike: This feature is a hidden break in the class design philosophy that the designers talked about all through the previews for 4E: all classes will get all class features at level 1. Granted, Rage Strike is available at level one, but is completely useless until level 5 and doesn't really become a consistently useful ability until level 9. At most, Rage Strike can be used twice in a day (and only then if the barbarian expends all three daily powers in one encounter). I'll have to see it in play, but as it stands I don't like it.

Rage mechanic: Different rages behaving much like stances seems pretty good on paper. I would actually prefer rage to be the barbarian's extra damage ability, conferring extra damage once per round at some penalty, but I'll play around with this and see how it works out.

General focus on killing the life out of everything: "The howling savage sends the corpse of his enemy flying, carries his swing onto the next doomed opponent, then charges through the fracas to deliver a decisive blow against the enemy commander." Imagine this: a rageblood barbarian scores a critical hit which also kills the target, allowing him to make a melee basic attack against another target and then charge and use an at-will power without provoking OAs. Oh yeah, and he gains a fair amount of temporary hit points on top of that. All of that in a single standard action (or even a minor action if it's a dragonborn scoring a crit and kill with his breath weapon). This right here says barbarian to me-a screaming death machine plowing through the front lines to charge frothing at the mouth at the biggest target. Fun times.

Overall: I'm still a bit worried about how raging in general will play out, and specifically worried that Rage Strike will be a completely unused feature of the class. The defender HP on a striker bothers me a lot, especially given that there's an at-will power that grants temporary hit points. The flavor of some of the other features (Rampage, the Swift Charge power) are wonderful, and I can't wait to try them out. As it stands, I'm extremely nervous about the designers changing up the general guidelines that the current classes have set down and what it could mean in the way of power creep in the PHB2. But I so want to rage, kill things, and go charging into the fray with no regard to my own safety!

 

[I'm A Banana]

If you cant use it until level 5, dont give it out until level 5. Problem solved, and the mechanic (which I happen to like) still works.

Well, not really, because then you have the funkiness of getting a class feature at level 5 when no one else is getting a class feature.

The mechanic isn't the problem, the problem is that it's useless for four levels. Somehow solve that "uselessness" problem, and you've made me a happy camper.

The more I think about it, the more I think there should be a basic "rage" feature that isn't a daily attack. If you migrate the damage capacity from the abilities into this "rage" feature, the abilities don't look as sexy for multiclassing. Even if we get rid of Rage Strike entirely, the idea of moving the damage capacity from powers into a different feature is an important one.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

No, I read it that way too.

"You should've hit me" would then be followed by an axe to the face. It's a nifty way for a Barbarian to try that whole "if you don't kill me first, you're dead, you know that?" thing. Which is a cool bit of combat RP.

You can't RP in 4e. Didn't you get the memo?

For the most part, I like this article and the class. The Rage Strike needs some clarification, and I worry about that one ability that gives you temp hp when you take down critters to 0 hp.

Wait..I forget (and don't have my books with me)..do temp HP stack? If not, then it's not so bad. If so, then barbarian + minions + great cleave = OH CRAP.

 

[Starbuck_II]

It's not a bad idea, but it looks bad. It's sloppy. Ugly. An obvious bandage over the wound when there is no pressing reason, I think, for the wound in the first place. It cures the symptom, not the disease. It's probably like another metaphor that I could conjure up.

So you think the fish rots from the head. So you are thinking cut off the head?
(sorry, your metaphor is similar to Dr. Horrible so it made me think you werte going to continue in that way)

Mengu said:

My initial concern after reading it was, why wouldn't a barbarian's first feat be chain armor? Since they don't rely on Dex or Int, it seems odd. Most barbarians will feel obliged to get this feat, and even possibly follow it up with light shield and scale. That's such a boring path of feats. Since 4e is trying to get away from the auto-pick feats, I think this issue needs to be addressed.

Why would a Barbarian use Light Shield? He uses a 2 handed weapon like a spear or sword or axe.
Doesn't seem vey Barbarian to be one handed (unless versatile but then can't use shield much anyway).
I think it would be fine if they included it, but not neccessary.
I agree with Chain + Scle (Conan sure did).

Originally Posted by TerraDave
And the mighty barbarian is: overcomplicated and fiddly?

There is rage(strike), there is needing to remember when to get your temp hp, there is needing to remember your extra crit attack....

...by themselves, ok, but put them together, and Conan's head starts to hurt.

Terra, Conan was a smart guy. He'd know what to do. The Character might not but Conans Player always did.

 

[Zaukrie]

I'm at work, so I skimmed the beginning of the article.

It's too complicated, because I couldn't understand how it works in the first 2 minutes. I know that sounds silly, but I think that is true. They need to much more clearly have a paragraph on rages, I think. Of course, maybe that skim was even too fast.

Rage strike is silliness. I don't want a power I can't use for 4 levels, and that even this is questionable.

I actually like most of the class, but the rage mechanic seems clunky and harder to track. Frankly, I'm sure that if rage strike and rages were more clear, and were easier to use, that two of the four people I DM with would take this class faster than I can say boo (not the grown up group, but the one with 3 kids and one adult).

Nice class, some cool abilities, and a new mechanic are nice. Actual implementation is not yet totally clear, and the coolest power seems like it isn't available until 5th level.

 

[Cadfan]

Well, I wrote a giant post but an accidental log out ate it.

In short,

1. Striker? I lose.

2. AC doesn't scale right since neither dex nor int are favored. Chainmail proficiency will become a must have, or else con or cha must be sacrificed.

3. Pressing Strike is so much better than Deft Strike that it isn't even funny.

4. Recuperating Strike similarly owns Bolstering Strike.

5. I know you can't make direct comparisons like that without context, but it does stick out.

6. Rage Strike is interesting, but why isn't it available at level 5 when you can first use it? Maybe the class description should call out the fact that it is only a desirable thing to use when your back's against a wall? Change the name to "Desperation Strike."

7. Hammer Fall is like Topple Over, except probably better. More jealousy for my rogue.

8. This class looks good, but it also looks seriously difficult to use. You have to know when to slip into the middle of the battle and lay out everyone around you with close bursts, and when to get out of dodge because your hit points are being sucked away.

9. This class doesn't mark, but its AC is so low that its almost like its marking everyone adjacent to it anyways. Seriously, a starting AC of 14 is pretty likely, and by level 30 that's only going to improve to about a 24 unless you invest in chainmail or put points in dex.

I'll have to stat up some trial characters to see what they really look like when you put them together. Its hard to visualize the power level because there are so many bonuses creeping in from multiple sources, like the rages and the way they augment everything you do.

The only thing that leaps out at me as unbalanced is Pressing Strike. I think its too good. Its a single power that, alone, makes this class as maneuverable as a Ranger or Rogue. Without that power, I don't think I'd even agree with the designers that this was a Striker class. But with it, I'm concerned that the Barbarian becomes the most maneuverable of all the strikers when it comes to the most important forms of maneuverability the game has.

 

[I'm A Banana]

...Chainmail proficiency will become a must have, or else con or cha must be sacrificed...You have to know when to slip into the middle of the battle and lay out everyone around you with close bursts, and when to get out of dodge because your hit points are being sucked away....This class doesn't mark, but its AC is so low that its almost like its marking everyone adjacent to it anyways. Seriously, a starting AC of 14 is pretty likely, and by level 30 that's only going to improve to about a 24 unless you invest in chainmail or put points in dex....

Well, for one, I think this is why your Rogue shouldn't be too jealous. He'll be dancing around the swords of his enemy that the barbarian just runs through, impaling himself.

For two, I think Barbarians make up the difference mostly in getting those temp HP boosts. The time to get out of dodge is when you stop being able to kill things quickly, which means you might need some backup. At least for this build, anyway. When bodies aren't hitting the floor, yours might be soon.