Lakoda- I had a similar thought, but upon review it isn't that bad. The encounter and daily powers are about standard in terms of damage. Its the synergy with raging and boosting one's at wills that pumps up the damage, and thats not available without a paragon path multiclass. And at that point, its not an issue in my opinion- you've earned the damage boost.
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Barbarian is up!!!
- Thread starter JVisgaitis
- Start date
WalterKovacs
First Post
First of all, they have a bit of a disconnect in terms of class role. The defender/striker mix [with apparently some leader bits] fits the Barbarian. The Fighter can already do some serious damage ... and strikers already make themselves targets by being so powerful/annoying.
The barbarian has the HP of a defender, but the AC of a striker. Very Two Weapon Ranger in terms of AC [and the Two Weapon Ranger has the HP boost as a free feat], basically needing to spend feat slots to up his AC. Of course, willingly keeping the AC relatively low makes him a better defender. He'd still look at Dex as a fourth [or maybe third] stat because (a) Chain/Scale Spec uses Dex, (b) If he goes Blade, Spear or Flail he'd want Dex for feats, (c) Reflex is more important than Will.
On the subject of multi-classing ... with the way that Rogues and Rangers have their restrictions on powers based on weapon types ... perhaps the Barbarian HAS to use two handed weapons [or versatile weapons in two hands]. Rogues already have the issue of being Dex based [although they can go with Str as a secondary build, and there is at least one race to support maxing both out] and with light blades, it becomes nearly impossible to get versatile or two handed, making sneak attack auto-fail. Ranger still gets Quarry though, but it involves juggling around the weapons. Outside of a Dwarven Warlock with a Pact Hammer, there wouldn't be much problem for Warlock's multiclassing into Barb.
In general though, the main "concept" appears to be taking the Paladin: Daily = Smite idea and applying it to Rage. This means that the daily attack has to last all encounter long [since a Rage should be lasting]. Because of that, they need Rage Strike as a "fix" to the problem of people wanting to do daily damage without having to replace their ongoing effect (another option is just having the ongoing effect be "you may choose not to start this effect, and instead continue the effect of your previous rage". Still a bit clunky, and might not do as much damage, but eliminates the class feature.
The big thing is, replacing the "xd6" bonus damage dice with just doing more damage overall, which is where the whole Multiclassing "problem" comes in. They do have the "stuff happens while raging" effect as well.
Stuff I did like though: Temp hit points for killing people, the free charge when killing someone and the free attack on a critical. All those things are nice powers that help support the Striker/Defender hybrid.
One possible decision ... flat out make it a "hybrid" and, therefore, accept it will do less damage than other striker classes. Now, there are still some things it has over the rest. The ability to wield a two handed weapon, and thus have extremely high damage output based on the weapon die. I do like the encounter power that has VERY high damage, but an effect of giving the opponent's a better chance of hitting you. That kind of "defence for damage" trade off is very nice.
They could perhaps change the way that rages work. With having the rages as the daily power gives them a way of limiting the rages per day [ala 3rd edition] if the barb is required to be in a rage to be effective it does create some problems. One way would be to have a class feature to "enter" a rage, but still has a limit on it. The Paladin has lay on hands which lets him use his surges a different way a number of times per day ... perhaps a way to "enter a rage" a certain number of times per day without having to expend a daily power.
Here is an alternative means for raging, treated a bit like:
Enrage
Daily Power/Special [Usable a number of times per day equal to CON mod]
Personal, Rage
Minor Action
Effect: You may spend one healing surge. You do not regain hit points, instead you gain temporary hitpoints equal to your CON mod + 1/2 level. For the rest of the encounter, you are considered to be in a rage.
Then you have rage be a way to basically represent the bonus damage of the striker class.
For the Charisma based Barbarian, perhaps a similar power called "Fury" that also causes you to rage, but in a different way, based on your charisma.
Having a basic means to get rages per day, and then the daily powers have various effects that also result in you entering a rage. [you can also have utility stances that represent the various sprits, etc].
The ideas are there, but they need some work. I think the Rage as Smite idea just doesn't work though. Ultimately, a barbarian should probably be able to rage just about every encounter ... it's one of the thing most closely associated with the barbarian. Sure, smiting is something associated with Paladin's, but something that lasts all encounter probably shouldn't be a daily power.
The rogue requires combat advantage, warlock and ranger need to "target" the closest enemy in site ... there should be some condition for a barbarian to get his "rage bonus" for damage. Perhaps he rages as an immediate reaction when hit, so he has to basically take damage before he can start raging [although he may have other powers that let him rage, especially useful if you go to 0 HP and get healed back up, because you'd need to restart your rage]. The needing to take damage encourages the minor in defender as you'd need to make yourself a bit of a target at least to trigger the rage. That idea is already in some of the other powers that encounrage people to attack you.
The barbarian has the HP of a defender, but the AC of a striker. Very Two Weapon Ranger in terms of AC [and the Two Weapon Ranger has the HP boost as a free feat], basically needing to spend feat slots to up his AC. Of course, willingly keeping the AC relatively low makes him a better defender. He'd still look at Dex as a fourth [or maybe third] stat because (a) Chain/Scale Spec uses Dex, (b) If he goes Blade, Spear or Flail he'd want Dex for feats, (c) Reflex is more important than Will.
On the subject of multi-classing ... with the way that Rogues and Rangers have their restrictions on powers based on weapon types ... perhaps the Barbarian HAS to use two handed weapons [or versatile weapons in two hands]. Rogues already have the issue of being Dex based [although they can go with Str as a secondary build, and there is at least one race to support maxing both out] and with light blades, it becomes nearly impossible to get versatile or two handed, making sneak attack auto-fail. Ranger still gets Quarry though, but it involves juggling around the weapons. Outside of a Dwarven Warlock with a Pact Hammer, there wouldn't be much problem for Warlock's multiclassing into Barb.
In general though, the main "concept" appears to be taking the Paladin: Daily = Smite idea and applying it to Rage. This means that the daily attack has to last all encounter long [since a Rage should be lasting]. Because of that, they need Rage Strike as a "fix" to the problem of people wanting to do daily damage without having to replace their ongoing effect (another option is just having the ongoing effect be "you may choose not to start this effect, and instead continue the effect of your previous rage". Still a bit clunky, and might not do as much damage, but eliminates the class feature.
The big thing is, replacing the "xd6" bonus damage dice with just doing more damage overall, which is where the whole Multiclassing "problem" comes in. They do have the "stuff happens while raging" effect as well.
Stuff I did like though: Temp hit points for killing people, the free charge when killing someone and the free attack on a critical. All those things are nice powers that help support the Striker/Defender hybrid.
One possible decision ... flat out make it a "hybrid" and, therefore, accept it will do less damage than other striker classes. Now, there are still some things it has over the rest. The ability to wield a two handed weapon, and thus have extremely high damage output based on the weapon die. I do like the encounter power that has VERY high damage, but an effect of giving the opponent's a better chance of hitting you. That kind of "defence for damage" trade off is very nice.
They could perhaps change the way that rages work. With having the rages as the daily power gives them a way of limiting the rages per day [ala 3rd edition] if the barb is required to be in a rage to be effective it does create some problems. One way would be to have a class feature to "enter" a rage, but still has a limit on it. The Paladin has lay on hands which lets him use his surges a different way a number of times per day ... perhaps a way to "enter a rage" a certain number of times per day without having to expend a daily power.
Here is an alternative means for raging, treated a bit like:
Enrage
Daily Power/Special [Usable a number of times per day equal to CON mod]
Personal, Rage
Minor Action
Effect: You may spend one healing surge. You do not regain hit points, instead you gain temporary hitpoints equal to your CON mod + 1/2 level. For the rest of the encounter, you are considered to be in a rage.
Then you have rage be a way to basically represent the bonus damage of the striker class.
For the Charisma based Barbarian, perhaps a similar power called "Fury" that also causes you to rage, but in a different way, based on your charisma.
Having a basic means to get rages per day, and then the daily powers have various effects that also result in you entering a rage. [you can also have utility stances that represent the various sprits, etc].
The ideas are there, but they need some work. I think the Rage as Smite idea just doesn't work though. Ultimately, a barbarian should probably be able to rage just about every encounter ... it's one of the thing most closely associated with the barbarian. Sure, smiting is something associated with Paladin's, but something that lasts all encounter probably shouldn't be a daily power.
The rogue requires combat advantage, warlock and ranger need to "target" the closest enemy in site ... there should be some condition for a barbarian to get his "rage bonus" for damage. Perhaps he rages as an immediate reaction when hit, so he has to basically take damage before he can start raging [although he may have other powers that let him rage, especially useful if you go to 0 HP and get healed back up, because you'd need to restart your rage]. The needing to take damage encourages the minor in defender as you'd need to make yourself a bit of a target at least to trigger the rage. That idea is already in some of the other powers that encounrage people to attack you.
The Little Raven
First Post
What? Everyone gets 2 at-will powers, and the Barbarian looks to be no different. The only problem is that Rage Strike is so situational that it won't be useful at all until 5th level, but I suspect that the feedback they'll get on it will get them to fix up that error. Perhaps they'll add a Rage ability that puts you into a rage without granting any particular bonuses, so you can use Rage Strike from 1st level.
JVisgaitis
Explorer
Now that right there is elegant rules design. The only problem I see with this is they basically need to redo everything they already have. Personally, I think its a much better way to go. Bravo!
I'm sorry, that's ridiculous. Its sole purpose is to enable the nova that every other class can do for free. It's not a "Whee! Damage!" button. It's an "I like my current rage but I need damage" button. Everyone who's put up a 'fix' on this thread seems not to realize this.
JVisgaitis
Explorer
Um, same thing. If they can't use Rage Strike until 5th Level, they would be minus 1 at will power until 5th Level. So technically, they'd have only 1.
Nahat Anoj
First Post
Something like this gets my vote. I might make it a minor action and remove the half-damage effect, so that it could be used in conjunction with encounter powers, but I like the idea of giving up an unused Rage to hit harder. Basically, remove the "only while raged" requirement.
Exactly. It's not that it's not usable before 5th level. It's not innately usable before 5th level. They simply left space for ways to recharge daily powers.
And thanks for finding that item, I knew I had read something that let you recharge a daily power somewhere.
JVisgaitis
Explorer
Instead of being abrasive about it, how about you post an example of what you mean?
Just cause Conan has a low Int, doesnt mean the controlling player does
Anyone who thinks Conan had a lot Int didn't read much Conan.
Anyway, I very much like the style of the class, and particular the unique spin daily Rages-as-encounter-perma-buffs, although the latter now makes me feel less cool for using a similar concept in the draft of a 4E Incarnate I've been working on. Preempted! Curse you, WoTC, curse you!
As folks have already said, AC could become an issue, with light armor and no priority on Dex or Int. It essentially turns it into a race between the Barbarian's ability to acquire temp HP and the opposing monsters ability to damage him, and I feel like after a certain point, the latter is going to quickly outpace for the former. By the same token, a bunch of Barbarians picking up a full progression of armor feats doesn't seem entirely thematic even though a half feral war machine in plate armor is a pretty striking visual.
Pressing Strike is super, super good. Its like the ilicit love child of Deft Strike and Tide of Iron, bearing all of their strengths and none of their weaknesses in a very comic book origin story fashion. I'm not sure why the shift should be in there at all, as from a theme standpoint, it just makes sense for it to be a push + damage.
Recuperating Strike is also quite good, but likely the Barbarian is going to need to spam it like crazy if their AC turns out to be garbae.
Avalanche Strike does as much as Brute Strike but is an encounter power, but is one of the few 4E powers that actively penalizes you for its use. A 1st level Barbarian using it is basically going to take a free hit from any enemy around him, since he'll end up with someting like 10 AC for the round.
These are just a handful of first impressions, though. I'll have to put it through its paces alongside the rest to be really sure of how it all plays out.
Also, regarding the comment of the Barbarian potentially dealing less damage than other strikers due to the lack of a quarry/curse mechanic: There is always the possibility of baking that sort of damage bonus (1d6) into all abilities used while raging (although again, it really puts the pressure on the barbarian to use his/her dailies), as they did with Pressing Strike.
I wouldn't be surprised if we see other Barbarian Paragon Paths designed in a fashion similar to the Wizard ones, with an emphasis on recovering expended dailies, either.
Also, I'm rather intrigued about the thaneborn barbarian. From the brief impression given, it feels like its going to go the route of Striker-with-a-dab-of-Leader, which could be fun.
Also, put down for the following statline guesses:
Goliaths: +2 Str, +2 Con (This one seems fairly obvious)
Half-Orcs: +2 Str, +2 Wis (I can't justify Dex)
JVisigatis said:
I don't mind stepping outside the box if it allows for interesting mechanical design, and honestly, you're going to have to after awhile, or that box is going to get awful crowded.
And seriously, was this such a big deal in 3.5E when it is approximately x1000 times more prevalent from the onset of the system?
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