Barbarian is up!!!

[WalterKovacs]

- One of the things we heard in 4e development was that races would be different but equal; an elf fighter and dwarf fighter would play very differently, but one wouldn't be inherently better then the other. I think this was mostly geared towards making the classes very MAD, which, in their defense, they were - at the least, classes would need have three main attributes, which would give a good racial diversity. I think barbarians break that though; they really don't need a lot of stats, at least from what we've seen so far, and as such there IS the problem of one master race for barbarians.
- Barbarians, due to chainmail, start off inherently with one less feat

a) Dex, outside of just the benefit until you get heavy armor, helps with a number of feats that may come up (if you don't go with hammers or axe, you want armor spec for chain or scale)

b) This is specifically the STR + CON build, so no charisma based powers. This means that it's going to look very one sided as to which class is "best" at it. In general though, the lack of races in PHB I that give bonuses to Strength made it so that non-human [or dragonborn] races would have a hard time being a "good" fighter, as they need to spend a LOT on getting their strength up. A Dwarven Barbarian might have a hard time gettng his STR up, but he has the bump in CON, and the cool weapon feat.

Many classes have a pair of builds where the individual builds only really need 2 stats. Without seeing the charisma build, we can't see whether you'd want all three stats, or just go with 2 and leave it at that. [Remember, the class may have a GREAT fort, but will have a horrible will and reflex if it just maxes out STR and CON].

 

[Ethalias]

Consider this a vote for a Rage Strike sidebar, 2-handed weapon requirement and some sort of AC fix.

 

[Spatula]

Gah, so much gnashing of teeth and so many odd workarounds for Rage Strike. Wouldn't the easier, more elegant way of doing it just be removing the "Must already be raging" condition? Trading an unused Rage power for the damage seems Rage-y enough to me.

That's a good idea.

 

[Dragonblade]

Consider this a vote for a Rage Strike sidebar, 2-handed weapon requirement and some sort of AC fix.

NO AC fix needed, unless its to give the class a higher AC bonus. Already the class is hurting in the AC dept. It needs armor feats just to avoid getting annihilated.

 

[Spatula]

Agreed, all the criticisms of Rage Strike seem to come down entirely to semantics.

If you skip over all the design criticisms for an ability that you can't use for 4 levels.

I'd just like to chime in here real quick on the armor issue. I think many people are looking at this the wrong way. The Barbarian is EXPECTED to take those armor feats. The Barbarian NEEDS those armor feats.

Ah, hidden penalties and false choices buried in class & feat design. It's so strange how that was a bad thing 6 months ago.

 

[JVisgaitis]

- One of the things we heard in 4e development was that races would be different but equal; an elf fighter and dwarf fighter would play very differently, but one wouldn't be inherently better then the other.

This direction pretty much changed though, didn't it? The only difference between races now are the encounter powers you get at first level and a few feats. I think they either fell short on that promise or changed direction through the course of development. Wasn't this mentioned at some point somewhere?

 

[Wormwood]

It's not hard to grasp. I understand the benefits and why they did it. IMO it's a band aid to fix a design flaw.

This right here.

A more elegant solution to emulate flipping out and killing things could have been achieved.

 

[Mezzer]

Consider this a vote for a Rage Strike sidebar, 2-handed weapon requirement and some sort of AC fix.

Making his powers require a 2H weapon is a very artificial and wholly unrealistic limitation; what of the barbarian who wants to look cool by swinging around two weapons? Sure, he doesn't have any abilities that explicitly use two weapons, but the flavor is nice, and the two related feats (TWF and TWD) are also an option. Heck, he might attack once with one, and then switch to the other, for some power that specifically requires a different weapon.

Another tidbit to consider is the fact that AC fixes have thus far only shown up on defenders, and I think they should stay there. Everyone else can fend for themselves, and the barb has plenty of ways to do that. What people really feel is missing, is the fact that he doesn't have a penalty for going for heavier armor, but then, neither does anyone else. Any race with a bonus to either Dex or Int (genasi, drow, the various MM races, etc.) could easily stick to light armor, and be happy about it.

 

[Ethalias]

NO AC fix needed, unless its to give the class a higher AC bonus. Already the class is hurting in the AC dept. It needs armor feats just to avoid getting annihilated.

Man that smiley looks mean! You'll be glad to hear that in my own clumsy attempts to keep it brief I appear to have mislead you. I am, like you, concerned that armour feats are necessary to bring the Barbarian up to speed in a fashion that could detract from its flavour if taken to extremes. However that's just based on what I've read here, I could well be wrong.

*EDIT* Some other fair comments on my vote. AC appears to be a more complex issue than I'd credited it for. I stand by the need for a little explaination for Rage Strike, though I believe it functions perfectly well as is..

Take it easy

Ethalias

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'm not sure the barbarian needs an increased AC: compare him with, say, the melee ranger.

The barbarian has more surges, bigger surges, better defenses (recuperating strike) and better maneuverability (pressing strike basically guarantees that you can get in and get out any time you hit) than the melee ranger.

That said - removing some of those advantages in exchange for better armor would seem like a fair trade. For me a prime candidate would be removing some of that maneuverability - as is barbarians are out-doing rogues and rangers at flitting about the battlefield untouched, which to me doesn't fit thematically.

Additionally - it seems like the powers of the barbarian seem really, really good targets for multiclassing. What rogue wouldn't want to swap one of his garbage dailies for thunder hawk rage?