D&D 5E Barbarians: Why not multiclass?

[Greg Benage]

Man, I'd play a 4-headed hermaphroditic snail from the planet Zorberg if I can roll 1d100 for damage.

Hold up. How does it work with TWFing style? Do I get to reroll 1s and 2s on each of the d10s? Does the snail have natural armor and does it stack with Unarmored Defense?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

As for Barbarians and multiclassing, I wouldn't recommend it unless you have something very specific in mind. Barbarian has one of the best capstone abilities in the game, and you don't usually want to slow down progression to each archetype's level 14 ability, which tend to be quite potent.

Barbarian's capstone: +4 to Str/Con, unlimited rages per day. Is that really worth 15 levels of investment? A Barbarian 20 and a Barbarian 5/Anything 15 will play virtually the same. They both get a bunch of ASIs and a Proficiency bonus. Barbarian is a fun and effective class at level 5, especially if you're a human who already has Polearm Master + Great Weapon Master, but after that point it's basically meh until level 20, which is pretty decent. And if you're already using your bonus action on GWM/Polearm Master, the 14th level totem abilities become much less interesting because the best one (Wolf) conflicts with that bonus action that you're already using.

Rather than "not wanting to slow down progression" in barbarian, it looks to me like you ought to be jumping on any opportunity to defect from barbarian as early as possible. For example, a Mobile Barbarian 5/Thief X could be pretty awesome in a Conan/Tarzan sort of way. I can see him now, Recklessly Attacking with his Battleaxe for sneak attack damage, then pulling back a few feet and tossing a caltrop right where the enemy is going to trip over it next turn. (Also, Stealth and Athletics Expertise is just too good to pass up.) Any enemy who actually hits him has to get past Rage and Uncanny Dodge so will only do 1/4 of normal damage.

GWM Polearm Master Barbearian 3/Fiend-Bladelock X also has lots of potential, since Rage only prevents casting or concentrating on spells, not maintaining them. You could totally Armor of Agathys V and enrage yourself when you want to wade into melee; when you don't want to melee, put on an antler helmet and throw Eldritch Blasts and Fireballs like some crazy Molo Ram imitation (Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom). You wind up with only 3 rages per day instead of the 6 per day that a full Barbarian 19 would have, but you know, that's okay, because Fiendish Resilience, Dark One's Blessing, Armor of Agathys, and Foresight will make up for it. You'll get all the crazy destructive fun of beating things to death with your greataxe for d12+21 damage per hit (+2 Rage, +4 Str, +5 Lifedrinker, +10 GWM) plus 10d10 psychic, and the fun of throwing around Fireballs/Counterspell/Vampiric Touch when you want that instead. Warlocks have a notoriously narrow spell list but compared to a pure barbarian they wind up looking really versatile and good.

Man, now I want to play a Barbearian/Fiendlock.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

There's only one slight problem with your analysis. Real Barbarian don't use halberds.

I mean, sure, if they are weaponless and they are forced to pick up the weapon of their enemies for a short period of time in order to slaughter them and hear the lamentations of the townsfolk said halberd-wielding enemies are guarding, why not?

But what self-respecting Barbarian is gallivanting around, lopping off heads and praising Crom for the gift of Wine, Women, and good, um, pole-arms? I mean, the jokes write themselves.

I saw what you did there.

"Back, now," Conan called to his fellows. "Board the ship, take oars, and row clear of this place! Do not wait. I will rejoin you!"

He halted to meet Vulpus and his men, smiting the big Shemite on the shoulder as he sprinted for the Remorseless. Oars were beginning to clash together and thump against the dock as the shouting, cursing crew made ready. Then, turning with a murderous yell, he brandished his halberd high and went charging back along the pier toward the attackers.

It was a mad tactic, the one his foes least expected. The dock was wide enough for three men to stride abreast, or for one to defend with a long-hafted weapon. Now, as Conan drove into their midst, the Imperials were too surprised and too closely grouped to react well...

 

[Mouseferatu]

Obviously, play whatever floats your goat. No argument there. But...

It all depends on how you look at it. In other threads, people insist that the we are only talking about Medieval times (throwing the Germanic tribes vis-a-vis Rome right out). The Chinese, of course, thought that everyone else was a Barbarian (which, to be honest, isn't too different than the Romans).

The third, and last, is my own thing; the sheer absurdity of it all. Now, everyone has their own suspension of disbelief when it comes to a game involving dragons and fireballs. But it's very difficult to see an adventuring party wandering through tight dungeon corridors, stealthily traversing forests, breaking into the King's palace, sitting down at the Inn for a flagon of ale, and generally adventurin' when Ugg, the super-optimized Half-Orc Barbarian with a Halberd and Pole Arm Mastery that does Max DPR has a giant halberd. Maybe that's just me (it could just be me).

There are very few cultures in history who didn't have pole arms of some sort, and in most cases they went beyond the spear (though the spear was, of course, most common and usually came first). It doesn't matter what period of time you're emulating, assuming we're not going back as far as the Stone or early Bronze Age.

And most real-world equivalents to "adventurers" carried them. Much as I hate to hold the Conquistadors up as examples of, well, anything other than murderous psychopaths, they traveled far from home to explore the wilds and steal treasure from others. And they carried spears, halberds, etc.

Sure, they didn't spent a lot of time dungeon-crawling, but otherwise they got into very similar scrapes. Now, I agree that if you're being realistic, pole arms aren't great for tomb-raiding or stealth. OTOH, they are no less realistically appropriate for tomb-raiding or stealth than, say, full plate armor or longbows. Do you eschew those, too? How about greatswords and greataxes, which aren't technically pole arms but functionally require just as much space?

Again, it's entirely up to you where to draw your lines. But I hope you don't mind me saying I find this to be a peculiar place to do so.

 

[CapnZapp]

Thank you Hemlock, for actually discussing the OPs issue.

It struck me how very few replies that actually provided a relevant answer, instead of setting up their own premisses and going off to discuss those instead.

And since that includes me too, let me give you my answer, an answer so few seem to be willing to concede :-/

It is "no, in a game with your parameters, there aren't any particular reasons to stay in the Barbarian class".

People dismiss lots of pacing concerns all the time just spouting off the absurd "if you're not having 6-8 encounters and 2 short rests a day, I can't help you" propaganda. But in reality, it's damned hard to force this pacing on the players, and the game system itself gives you as a DM next to no enforcement tools to help you.

Having a player be perfectly content with 3 rages a day seems perfectly understandable to me.

Having a player eagerly looking at the juicy first levels of almost every class in the PHB seems perfectly understandable to me.

What your player needs, then, is mainly two things:
1) it helps to possess an above-average level of system mastery. Multiclassing properly (as in "getting more power out of it") is not trivial in 5E.
2) it helps to have above-average stats. To say this plainly: it helps if you roll stats randomly and if you are lucky in that roll.

This is because 5E has a much better multiclass balance than previous editions. First off, you need to meet the ability minimums for both the class you're MCing out of, and the class you're MCing in to. Then you need to make sure you don't unneccessarily delay your second attack much beyond level 5. You don't want to upset the rythm of getting ASIs or feats every four levels. Etc.

(The main secret sauce? It is "no prestige classes yet". By prestige classes I don't primarily mean classes you can't take until after 1st level, which seems to be on the table for 5e too. I primarily mean classes that allow you to get the main benefits of your normal class in addition to whatever benefits the prestige class gives you. Such as being allowed to fully progress as a wizard spellcaster. Not just combine two spellcasting classes per the regular 5e MC rules, but to actually progress as a wizard for spell level and slot purposes even though you aren't levelling in that class. This 3e/d20 allowed and it was gloriously broken)

It can be done, but it isn't trivial.

And that's mainly your answer. Many people would rather stay in their class, knowing that gives them a decent-enough twenty-level build. If MC is allowed at all!

But if your player (and his character's stats) feels up to the task, then yes, multiclassing can and will get him an extra oomph, especially since he doesn't seem to plan to use the main scaling-with-class-level feature of his chosen class (number of rages).

Of course, if you and he haven't played a 5e campaign to high levels yet, the risk of underestimating the need for more rages is acute.

Pacing at low levels change quite dramatically at higher levels - not because you the DM "fix" the encounter structure, but because different tiers play differently.

I DMd a campaign that went to level 8 or thereabouts, and my Barb player felt that suddenly the rages started to go by much faster than before.

So go ahead, but don't be surprised if the next time your player chooses a Barbarian, he will stay in the class for much longer!

 

[PnPgamer]

Man, I'd play a 4-headed hermaphroditic snail from the planet Zorberg if I can roll 1d100 for damage.

 

[Azurewraith]

Sorry hate to say it but i find no reason not to multiclass as well anything in 5e except maybe rogue or a full caster as well action surge is awesome smite is awesome fighters extra attacks are awsome rage is awsome even just twice a day adding a sub stat to armour is awsome im sure you catch my drift. I know its not the answer you wanted but it is my humble opinion.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

So, just for fun I felt like rolling up a barblock and running him through a brutal solo fight at close range against an Iron Golem just to see what it might feel like in play.

Barbarian 3/Warlock 12 (level 15) vs. CR 16 Iron Golem. Deadly threshold for 1 level 15 character is 6400 XP, this fight is 22,500 XP, so this is 3.5x Deadly.

Note that the Barb will be fighting recklessly (in all senses of the word), not using his spells to full advantage (e.g. no Darkness), and gains no real benefit from his GWM feat because an Iron Golem's AC is too high. He also gains no real benefit from Dark One's Blessing because it's a brutal solo fight. This fight is kind of a worst-case scenario from the axehappy Barbarian's perspective--it's meant to be basically a test to destruction.

Barbarian wins initiative
1a. Barblock casts Armor of Agathys V, readies his polearm, and retreats slightly
1b. Iron Golem quickly advances into melee range. Takes 13 damage from polearm opportunity attack, cannot attack this turn due to Dash.
2a. Barb rages and recklessly attacks Iron Golem (NOT power attack, no bonus attack). Inflicts 27 damage with two attacks.
2b. Iron Golem attacks with sword. Hits twice for 24 points of damage. Takes 50 points of cold damage.
3a. Barbarian attacks three times, hits thrice for 51 points of damage. (First hit is a critical so GWM replaces PM strike this turn.)
3b. Iron Golem breathes poison. Inflicts 24 points of damage (failed Con save), which polishes off the last off the Armor of Agathys.
Barb is down 23 HP, Iron Golem is down 128 HP. Barb is mad with bloodlust, will not disengage to refresh AoA or anything. Now they both just hammer at each other until someone dies.
4a. Barblock hits once for 23 damage.
4b. Iron Golem hits twice for 16 damage.
5a. Barblock hits twice for 33 damage.
5b. Iron Golem hits twice for 30 damage.
6a. Barblock hits once for 12 damage.
6b. Iron Golem hits twice (one crit) for 36 damage.
Barb is now down 105 HP (out of 131). Iron Golem is down 196 (out of 210).
7a. Barblock hits for 32 damage. Iron Golem dies. Barbarian gains 16 temp HP.
Barbarian now has 26 HP + 16 temp HP remaining, probably wants to take a short rest.

Admittedly, this is the stupidest possible way for the Barblock to engage the Iron Golem. The fight would be smarter but a lot more boring if it went: Ascendant Step (Levitate) + Hex/Eldritch Blast for 11 rounds in a row until 222 HP of damage are finally inflicted. Or even if he had avoided raging, relied on Blade Ward, and just kept recasting Armor of Agathys (using Ascendant Step as necessary to withdraw from combat to refresh). He has a lot of options which I didn't use in this fight because I felt like being a MIGHTY RECKLESS BARBARIAN for once, and he came close to dying, but the fact is that at level 15 he soloed a CR 16 monster in melee in the most direct way possible and he still survived. I'd call the concept "viable".


[Original stats: 10 11 16 15 8 15]
Trog, Half-elven Outlander shaman, Barbarian 3/Warlock 12
Str 18 Dex 11 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 18 HP 131 AC 15 (Half-plate) or 17 (Half-plate and shield)
Polearm Master, Great Weapon Master, +2 Str
Thirsting Blade, Devil's Sight, Agonizing Repelling Blast, Ascendant Step, Lifedrinker
Athletics, Deception, Intimidation, Stealth, Insight, Religion
Fireball, Fire Shield, Darkness, Wall of Fire, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Hex,
Expeditious Retreat, Armor of Agathys, Hold Monster, Dimension Door
Eldritch Blast, Blade Ward, Minor Illusion, Friends
Mass Suggestion

 

[Weathercock]

For what it's worth, using Reckless Attack would likely have made the GWM power attack more optimal for your simulation.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

For what it's worth, using Reckless Attack would likely have made the GWM power attack more optimal for your simulation.

He was using Reckless attack, but with only +9 to hit and doing d10+10 already on a hit, power attacking is still a net loss.

Hit on 11+ at advantage, d10+10: expected damage 12.16 (including crits).
Hits on 16+ at advantage, d10+20: expected damage 11.69.

Of course, I didn't compute those numbers until just now. During the fight I just eyeballed it.

Edit: it turns out that power attacking on the bonus d4 attack from Polearm Master would have increased damage from 9.62 to 10.09. Not much of a loss though.