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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BluejayJunior" data-source="post: 7575632" data-attributes="member: 6918769">I want to focus on this statement. You claim that the variables and randomness of play mean that it is useless to determine which is better. Which I partially agree with. The usefulness of these spells can vary depending on the game that a person is playing in and the makeup of the party.But those variables and randomness also mean that white room analysis is meaningless because too many variables can come up during play that cannot be accounted for in the that type of analysis. Just take your 4 orc example. The effectiveness of each of those spells can change based on the initiative order, the location of the orcs (how far and how clustered they are), the battlefield, the numbers, levels, and classes of your party members, what optional/homebrew rules people are using (ie flanking for adv, which I will argue makes FF basically pointless for non-invisible enemies), how tactical the DM and players like to play, how min-maxed the characters are, whether one group is surprised, what the goal of the fight is (maybe you don't want the orcs to run into the next room to alert more orcs or you don't want to light them up to alert more orcs), your bard's spell DC, etc. There isn't a representative fight that can properly allow you to make a black/white conclusive determination about which is better.</blockquote>