Bard Faerie Fire in Tier 1

[FrogReaver]

So this thread is to analze Faerie fire with a Bard in Tier 1 (Levels 1-4)

The primary benefit of Faerie Fire is that it grants advantage to everyone in your party. It's a small AOE effect so it can hit more than 1 enemy. However it also can affect your allies. Let's compare it's use in some basic situations.

Against 4 orcs spread out such that only 2 can be hit at once. You have a very good chance of having faerie fire affect 1. You have a very low chance of affecting 2. Giving up your action and a spellslot to give advantage on an enemy that likely would have died just as fast if you had simply attacked the enemy. In short, faerie fire was a waste of a spell in this situation. Compare to sleep which almost guarantees that single orc is disabled instantly.

Against a solo enemy. You likely have a 40% chance of missing and doing nothing. However, if you hit your allies will be making enough attacks at the solo for the advantage to pay off. By the end of combat it likely results in turning 2-3 would be misses into hits. Hitting 2-3 additional times is essentially killing the enemy 1 round faster. So on the 60% chance that faerie fire lands you kill the enemy 1 round faster. On the 40% that you don't the fight lasts a turn longer. Compare to Tasha's Hideous Laughter. You have the same instance of initial failure. However if you hit the first disable then you have an additional chance to disable after doing so. In short on a failed save tasha's is much more effective than fearie fire for a solo.

So in what situation is faerie fire actually a better spell than the bards other options?

So exactly which situation is

 

[Leatherhead]

You can willingly drop concentration in the event that you somehow manage to hit your team but not the enemy with this spell.

 

[Mistwell]

First, you cherry picked your examples. A 20' cube isn't "small" (given the default is a dungeon room), and is also easily placed to avoid your allies most of the time (you can case against a wall to reduce it's field if you need to). Second, you happened to pick a foe with a bonus to Dex which happens to be the FF save. But even with that, it's not a "very low chance" of getting two because your save DC should still be meaningfully higher than their average, and you don't average the two together because that's not how those statistics work, each one has a less than 50% chance of making their save and each rolls separately. So you may well get both, you may well be able to hit more than two with it, and you may well be hitting creatures without that same bonus to Dex.

Second, Tasha's is a terrible comparison because it's a single target spell while FF is intended as an area effect, and Tasha's targets Wisdom, and also grants an additional save when they take damage AT ADVANTAGE.

And then of course there is the "gets rid of invisibility" aspect of FF, which is damn helpful when you need it!

 

[5ekyu]

Well, it's an odd comparison to then be judged mostly if not solely on combat metrics.

FF is a multi-feature (light, buff, de-buff), AoE effect that can impact hidden and invisible creatures and objects. It is a save-for-duration. Its de-buff vs invisible is no more valuable at higher levels as access to invisible becomes more frequent.

Tasha's is a single target control that does not scale at all. It has an int limit that prevents many beasts. It allows re-saves each round AND when damaged.

Both are concentration, FF has longer range. Durations are same iirc.

FF is verbal only, so no hands needed. If you can talk, you can cast. For a bard with weapons and dex, that can matter. Not only is THL VSM but your components include pies - tiny tarts. Not always easy on hand if you get looted or escape captivity scenarios.

Ranged encounters would seem to really favor FF.
There are quite a few terrain situations where an aoe would be much better than a short range must-see-creature.

Outside of a plain white room, seems obvious which way I would go. FF before Tasha's.

While tier-1 limits your "value" somewhat cuz invis not as common for foes, it's also a tier with fewer known spells or prepared, so multi-function is huge.

 

[FrogReaver]

First, you cherry picked your examples. A 20' cube isn't "small" (given the default is a dungeon room), and is also easily placed to avoid your allies most of the time (you can case against a wall to reduce it's field if you need to). Second, you happened to pick a foe with a bonus to Dex which happens to be the FF save. But even with that, it's not a "very low chance" of getting two because your save DC should still be meaningfully higher than their average, and you don't average the two together because that's not how those statistics work, each one has a less than 50% chance of making their save and each rolls separately. So you may well get both, you may well be able to hit more than two with it, and you may well be hitting creatures without that same bonus to Dex.

Second, Tasha's is a terrible comparison because it's a single target spell while FF is intended as an area effect, and Tasha's targets Wisdom, and also grants an additional save when they take damage AT ADVANTAGE.

And then of course there is the "gets rid of invisibility" aspect of FF, which is damn helpful when you need it!

Good catch on the making a repeated save on damage. I'd forgotten that downside.

So you are saying on the solo that Faerie Fire is good? I agree it's better than tasha's. Is It better than dissonant whispers?

By the way a 20ft cube is no larger than a 20 ft ground based square. It covers 4 5x5 squares. I find it unlikely that 3 or more medium sized enemies are going to nicely align in faerie fire formation. Don't you?

As to your statistics, I'm well aware how they work. You have a low but not non-existant chance of missing with faerie fire against 2 creatures. You have a very high chance of hitting 1 or the other. You have a fairly low chance of hitting both. The hitting both and missing both roughly cancel out (not exactly as you are a little more likely to hit both than miss both)…. but for purposes of comparison it's close enough to say that on average you will hit one.

 

[FrogReaver]

Well, it's an odd comparison to then be judged mostly if not solely on combat metrics.

FF is a multi-feature (light, buff, de-buff), AoE effect that can impact hidden and invisible creatures and objects. It is a save-for-duration. Its de-buff vs invisible is no more valuable at higher levels as access to invisible becomes more frequent.

Tasha's is a single target control that does not scale at all. It has an int limit that prevents many beasts. It allows re-saves each round AND when damaged.

Both are concentration, FF has longer range. Durations are same iirc.

FF is verbal only, so no hands needed. If you can talk, you can cast. For a bard with weapons and dex, that can matter. Not only is THL VSM but your components include pies - tiny tarts. Not always easy on hand if you get looted or escape captivity scenarios.

Ranged encounters would seem to really favor FF.
There are quite a few terrain situations where an aoe would be much better than a short range must-see-creature.

Outside of a plain white room, seems obvious which way I would go. FF before Tasha's.

While tier-1 limits your "value" somewhat cuz invis not as common for foes, it's also a tier with fewer known spells or prepared, so multi-function is huge.

So far the only real situation where faerie fire is useful for in tier 1 is against invisible which is admittedely rare and a solo enemies. That doesn't seem very multi function to me. In later tiers I'm all for it but in tier 1, I'm still not seeing it. What other uses does it actually have?

 

[Zardnaar]

So far the only real situation where faerie fire is useful for in tier 1 is against invisible which is admittedely rare and a solo enemies. That doesn't seem very multi function to me. In later tiers I'm all for it but in tier 1, I'm still not seeing it. What other uses does it actually have?

Thinks like Knights high AC low Dex saves and advantage granting for the - 5/+10 feats. It's not better than bless but if you lack access to bless its very good. Also useful at higher levels.

 

[5ekyu]

Good catch on the making a repeated save on damage. I'd forgotten that downside.

So you are saying on the solo that Faerie Fire is good? I agree it's better than tasha's. Is It better than dissonant whispers?

By the way a 20ft cube is no larger than a 20 ft ground based square. It covers 4 5x5 squares. I find it unlikely that 3 or more medium sized enemies are going to nicely align in faerie fire formation. Don't you?

As to your statistics, I'm well aware how they work. You have a low but not non-existant chance of missing with faerie fire against 2 creatures. You have a very high chance of hitting 1 or the other. You have a fairly low chance of hitting both. The hitting both and missing both roughly cancel out (not exactly as you are a little more likely to hit both than miss both)…. but for purposes of comparison it's close enough to say that on average you will hit one.

Isnt 20' cube 16 squares?

 

[FrogReaver]

Thinks like Knights high AC low Dex saves and advantage granting for the - 5/+10 feats. It's not better than bless but if you lack access to bless its very good. Also useful at higher levels.

I agree at higher levels. But Please stay in the scope of the question. Levels 1-4 is what I'm here to discuss. I can see the -5/+10 feats being a consideration here. But I'm not sure that really changes the times when it's good, I think it just gives it a higher degree of goodness in the situations it was already good in.

 

[FrogReaver]

Isnt 20' cube 16 squares?

Hmm, you are right!