Bard Faerie Fire in Tier 1

[FrogReaver]

So since I apparently can't count today. 20ft cube is a 16 square area not a 4 square area. You will be able to easily target 3-4 enemies with it in most situations.

 

[5ekyu]

So far the only real situation where faerie fire is useful for in tier 1 is against invisible which is admittedely rare and a solo enemies. That doesn't seem very multi function to me. In later tiers I'm all for it but in tier 1, I'm still not seeing it. What other uses does it actually have?

It provides light both inside its initial area and more if creatures move out of it, assuming it's not a vacant white room without even a rock.

It can be placed to "reach around" corners, by placing its origin point beyond the corner.

At range combat, its spotlighting enemies for targeting, unlike tasha which knocks them prone giving disadvantage.

Again, at low tiers where you have very few spells known for a bard, the more narrow scope of THL makes it a very tough choice for a slot.

But a lot depends on the assumptions. The more bland and simple the encounters, maybe tasha gets better.

But as I rank spells, tasha ranks very low.
It gets dinged for single target, no scaling, bonus saves, components/materials, limits on targets, etc etc. Too many ways for it to just not work.

 

[FrogReaver]

It provides light both inside its initial area and more if creatures move out of it, assuming it's not a vacant white room without even a rock.

It can be placed to "reach around" corners, by placing its origin point beyond the corner.

At range combat, its spotlighting enemies for targeting, unlike tasha which knocks them prone giving disadvantage.

Again, at low tiers where you have very few spells known for a bard, the more narrow scope of THL makes it a very tough choice for a slot.

But a lot depends on the assumptions. The more bland and simple the encounters, maybe tasha gets better.

Let's go back an reanalyze because I had the effect sized incorrectly.

If you catch even 3 of 4 enemies in the area I feel like 2 enemies affected is the typical result. At that point it's better than your cantrip. Is it better than disoonant whispers or sleep? I don't really see that happening in tier 1.

No one has taken up the question about faerie fire vs dissonant against a solo.

 

[5ekyu]

Let's go back an reanalyze because I had the effect sized incorrectly.

If you catch even 3 of 4 enemies in the area I feel like 2 enemies affected is the typical result. At that point it's better than your cantrip. Is it better than disoonant whispers or sleep? I don't really see that happening in tier 1.

No one has taken up the question about faerie fire vs dissonant against a solo.

Not sure what cantrip on mine you are referring to, so will ignore that.

As for FF vs DW, they have little in common and are highly dependent of both situation and group and enemy. To me, they would not be in competition with each other but each be weighing off against others.

Vs sleep... it gets tougher. The issue with sleep vs solo is that solo varmints in tier-1 usually have higher than normal HD. Plus undead etc are unaffected. If a group is surrounding a solo so everybody can sttike... sleep circle is maybe problematic.

Sleep is good and has a lot going for it in quite a few cases. I would put it on PAR with FF.

 

[FrogReaver]

Dissonant whispers against a solo does half damage on a miss. That's not a lot but it's something. On a hit it does about 1 attacks worth of damage and grants probably 2 OA's when facing a solo (2 melee allies is pretty common). All in all that looks like 2-3 attacks worth of damage to me. I think that's what I computed faerie fire granting against a solo.

Is dissonant whispers better against 4 orcs than faerie fire?

 

[5ekyu]

Dissonant whispers against a solo does half damage on a miss. That's not a lot but it's something. On a hit it does about 1 attacks worth of damage and grants probably 2 OA's when facing a solo (2 melee allies is pretty common). All in all that looks like 2-3 attacks worth of damage to me. I think that's what I computed faerie fire granting against a solo.

Is dissonant whispers better against 4 orcs than faerie fire?

So, you are assessing 2 allies and DW putting out 2-3 attacks worth of damage but that's a save before anything and a failed save and then hits to get any AO thru...

But for FF you tend to see half output at the first save chance before we get to advantage yields.

Seems to me your methodology and assumptions are bring driven by unusual notions.

So, I will leave you to your self-fulfilling analysis.

 

[FrogReaver]

So, you are assessing 2 allies and DW putting out 2-3 attacks worth of damage but that's a save before anything and a failed save and then hits to get any AO thru...

FF does nothing on a successful save. So first I look at what happens when both spells fail. Not enough of a benefit to matter either way.

I then look at what happens when both spells succeed. FF turned 2-3 misses into hits. That's a rounds worth of attacks.
DW did 10.5 damage if it's in this case. That's 1 hit that at this point of the comparison is guaranteed. Then it allows 2 OA's. 2 OA's will be 1-2 hits.

Thus both spells cause the damage of 2-3 hits.

But for FF you tend to see half output at the first save chance before we get to advantage yields.

Not against a solo which is the question I am examining.

Seems to me your methodology and assumptions are bring driven by unusual notions.

Howso? What do you disagree with that I wrote above?

So, I will leave you to your self-fulfilling analysis.

Typical...

 

[Mistwell]

Good catch on the making a repeated save on damage. I'd forgotten that downside.

So you are saying on the solo that Faerie Fire is good? I agree it's better than tasha's. Is It better than dissonant whispers?

By the way a 20ft cube is no larger than a 20 ft ground based square. It covers 4 5x5 squares. I find it unlikely that 3 or more medium sized enemies are going to nicely align in faerie fire formation. Don't you?

As to your statistics, I'm well aware how they work. You have a low but not non-existant chance of missing with faerie fire against 2 creatures. You have a very high chance of hitting 1 or the other. You have a fairly low chance of hitting both. The hitting both and missing both roughly cancel out (not exactly as you are a little more likely to hit both than miss both)…. but for purposes of comparison it's close enough to say that on average you will hit one.

You are incorrect on 20' cube [Edit - and I see I was ninjaed on this answer Doh!] . From the PHB "The cube's size is expressed as the length of each side." A 20' cube is therefore 20' x 20' (and 20' high). It's 16 five-foot squares. You described a 10' cube. It's a pretty big area. You can usually get three targets in it, or more.

For example, the Web spell's 20' cube.

 

[Mort]

Dissonant whispers against a solo does half damage on a miss. That's not a lot but it's something. On a hit it does about 1 attacks worth of damage and grants probably 2 OA's when facing a solo (2 melee allies is pretty common). All in all that looks like 2-3 attacks worth of damage to me. I think that's what I computed faerie fire granting against a solo.

Very situation dependant.

If your group is primarily ranged (archer fighters, warlocks etc) I think FF is more useful because the group isn't as benefiting of OAs.

For a melee group it's a closer call, though personally I'm still not a big fan of a spell that by definition puts the big bad out of position.

Is dissonant whispers better against 4 orcs than faerie fire?

Unlikely.

FF lights up the orcs allowing maximum hits by the rest of the party (ensures a sneak attack for the rogue, if the archers have sharpshooter it gives them a pretty good chance at a one shot kill per orc). You'll definitely affect 1 orc, chances are you'll get 2, small chance at 3, almost no chance at all 4. And if it hits (failed save) it sticks around unless the bard gets hit.

Dissonant wispers has a pretty good chance of affecting 1 orc but no more than that, though there's also 0 chance of affecting a friendly. If it affects the one, he's probably dead(if not from the damage then from your ally standing next to him), if he saves well, you'll be lucky to bring him down to half. And that's it, the other three cannot be affected.

I think FF is likely the clear winner.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Invisibility isn't common at low levels, but it can be a killer if the party has no counter. I've seen a 1st level party running in terror from a couple of sprites.