D&D (2024) Fireball/Lightning Bolt vs Chromatic Orb?

[evilbob]

CO in effect you get energy substitution and careful spell for free.

Other day I saw one hit 5 targets at 4th level with 3 critical (two were guaranteed).

CO does give those benefits, I agree!

You can only hit 4 targets with a 4th level CO.

 

[Zardnaar]

CO does give those benefits, I agree!

You can only hit 4 targets with a 4th level CO.

5. It's spell level +1 for CO

New encounter guidelines say to not use X2 enemies for PCs. Easy fight for 6 is 7800 xp lvl 9 iirc. That's 10 CR 3s roughly maybe 11 each with 50-70hp roughly.

Mooks at those levels theoretically are CR 2 or 3. Fireball is very mediocre vs a low combat RAW die to hit point inflation

Hence why ramping up CO with crits and no saves in effect is better imho. If I'm not a sorcerer I probably wouldn't be casting it often but I don't think I would bother with fireball much either.

CO at least it's easily added to any spell casting class.

 

[FrogReaver]

CO does give those benefits, I agree!

You can only hit 4 targets with a 4th level CO.

Isn’t it 5?

 

[evilbob]

Chain lightning vs. 6th level Chromatic Orb on the elven draconic sorcerer!

Assumptions:

• level 11 elven draconic sorcerer with lightning focus, elven accuracy feat, 20 CHA
• Empowered, and either Seeking or Heightened metamagic
• Innate Sorcery is pre-cast (either advantage or +1 DC)
• 4 targets! (CL max)
• AC rough average for CR appropriate enemies: roughly 17
• Dex saves for roughly CR appropriate enemies: +3 (this is low actually)
• Bless is running: +2.5 to hit
• Magic items give +2 to hit and DCs

To hit: +13 with 3d20 for 99.6% chance to hit each time, rounding to 100% with Seeking
Chance to bounce: 99.7%, rounds to 100% with Empower
Crit miss: with Seeking it's 1 in 160,000
Crit hit: 14.26%, or 18.55% with Seeking

DC: 20, with one save at disadvantage, for 20% chance / 4% for one with disadvantage

Chain Lightning

• 10d8+5 = 50 average damage
• +Empowered is... about +6? I don't really know this math, we'll say 56 per target for now
• Saves: 56 x .8 = 44.8, 56 x .96 = 53.8

Total 4 targets: ~188

Chromatic Orb

• 8d8+5 = 41 average
• +Empowered is not much, maybe +6 to the total?
• Crits= 14.2% chance for 77 damage, or 46.1 avg per target
• Including miss chance and no-bounce chance: less than 0.4%, maybe 1.6% overall; we'll say 45.3 avg damage?

Total 4 targets: ~187

This seems kind of nuts, especially since CO can go up to 6 targets, which would be 45.3x6+6= ~278! (Probably close to 6th level Fireball with 6 targets.)

This trick of course is that it's just harder to make monsters fail saves than hit them. Even if every enemy had disadvantage in this scenario, they still had a 4% chance to save, which ultimately lowers your overall average - whereas bouncing and attacking with CO is basically a 100% chance, given all the modifiers you can get. I think that remains the clearest takeaway.

 

[FrogReaver]

Assuming base accuracy of 70%, and sufficient targets to get max bounces at each spell level.
Innate Sorcery active.

Lvl Cast	Base Dmg	w/Empower	% Gain	w/Seeking	% Gain	w/Elven Acc	% Gain	w/Emp+Seek	% Gain
1	17.86	26.58	149%	19.88	111%	20.10	113%	29.29	164%
2	33.09	49.89	151%	38.10	115%	38.22	115%	57.48	174%
3	59.51	84.49	142%	71.67	120%	71.15	120%	102.1	172%
4	98.92	115.7	117%	125.2	127%	122.9	124%	147.0	149%
5	146.0	160.2	110%	193.9	133%	188.1	129%	212.6	146%
6	193.5	205.3	106%	268.1	139%	257.5	133%	283.5	147%

Empowered Spell is the best option for spell levels 1-3. Seeking Spell (or Elven Accuracy) is best for spell levels 4-6. The combination of the two is obviously stronger than each on their own, but I still wouldn't use the combo before spell level 4. The gain over Empowered Spell doesn't feel worth that metamagic slot.

Personally, I'd start off with Empowered Spell and Twin Spell, rather than Seeking Spell, because of Twin Spell's use for non-blaster utility. Pick up Seeking Spell at level 10. However if you don't care about utility at all, and you also expect it to be common to not have Innate Sorcery available, then Seeking Spell is a lot more useful.

I wouldn't bother with getting Hex for a CO build. It's +1d6 against a single target (so irrelevant for all bounce targets), and uses concentration. Plus it's a bonus action to cast, so if you don't have it pre-cast, you have to wait a turn so that you can get Innate Sorcery active first. And even if you did have it pre-cast, it might very well need that bonus action to move it onto a target creature, so once again you'd have to wait til the turn after you activated Innate Sorcery. It might be more useful for a Scorching Ray build.

For Fireball, assuming the same number of targets hit as Chromatic Orb, +3 Dex save, and optional use of Empowered Spell:

Level Cast	Fireball	w/Empower	% Gain
1	0.00	0.00	0%
2	0.00	0.00	0%
3	95.20	115.60	121%
4	133.88	159.38	119%
5	178.50	216.75	121%
6	229.08	273.70	119%

1. What spell DC were you using for fireball? 17?
2. How are you calculating seeking and empower for Chromatic Orb. I've been trying to think that one through. And for seeking are you assuming only a single of the attacks can be rerolled?

 

[Zardnaar]

Chain lightning vs. 6th level Chromatic Orb on the elven draconic sorcerer!

Assumptions:

• level 11 elven draconic sorcerer with lightning focus, elven accuracy feat, 20 CHA
• Empowered, and either Seeking or Heightened metamagic
• Innate Sorcery is pre-cast (either advantage or +1 DC)
• 4 targets! (CL max)
• AC rough average for CR appropriate enemies: roughly 17
• Dex saves for roughly CR appropriate enemies: +3 (this is low actually)
• Bless is running: +2.5 to hit
• Magic items give +2 to hit and DCs

To hit: +13 with 3d20 for 99.6% chance to hit each time, rounding to 100% with Seeking
Chance to bounce: 99.7%, rounds to 100% with Empower
Crit miss: with Seeking it's 1 in 160,000
Crit hit: 14.26%, or 18.55% with Seeking

DC: 20, with one save at disadvantage, for 20% chance / 4% for one with disadvantage

Chain Lightning

• 10d8+5 = 50 average damage
• +Empowered is... about +6? I don't really know this math, we'll say 56 per target for now
• Saves: 56 x .8 = 44.8, 56 x .96 = 53.8

Total 4 targets: ~188

Chromatic Orb

• 8d8+5 = 41 average
• +Empowered is not much, maybe +6 to the total?
• Crits= 14.2% chance for 77 damage, or 46.1 avg per target
• Including miss chance and no-bounce chance: less than 0.4%, maybe 1.6% overall; we'll say 45.3 avg damage?

Total 4 targets: ~187

This seems kind of nuts, especially since CO can go up to 6 targets, which would be 45.3x6+6= ~278! (Probably close to 6th level Fireball with 6 targets.)

This trick of course is that it's just harder to make monsters fail saves than hit them. Even if every enemy had disadvantage in this scenario, they still had a 4% chance to save, which ultimately lowers your overall average - whereas bouncing and attacking with CO is basically a 100% chance, given all the modifiers you can get. I think that remains the clearest takeaway.

The original comparison did not take elven accuracy into account.

If available it seems to br the no brainer feat to take. Otherwise probably fae touched.

 

[FrogReaver]

For Fireball, assuming the same number of targets hit as Chromatic Orb, +3 Dex save, and optional use of Empowered Spell:

Level Cast	Fireball	w/Empower	% Gain
1	0.00	0.00	0%
2	0.00	0.00	0%
3	95.20	115.60	121%
4	133.88	159.38	119%
5	178.50	216.75	121%
6	229.08	273.70	119%

I've adjusted your fireball numbers to more accurately account for the Empower Charisma mod limitation on rerolls.

Level Cast	Fireball	w/Empower	% Gain
1	0.00	0.00	0%
2	0.00	0.00	0%
3	95.20	114.66	120%
4	133.88	160.23	120%
5	178.50	212.04	119%
6	229.08	269.89	118%

Not very large differences though. I was expecting a bit more given your explanation for how you calculated it. What I'm seeing here looks more like it could be possible rounding mid calc than an actual different calc. (My numbers weren't rounded till final calc in Excel).

 

[Zardnaar]

I've adjusted your fireball numbers to more accurately account for the Empower Charisma mod limitation on rerolls.

Level Cast	Fireball	w/Empower	% Gain
1	0.00	0.00	0%
2	0.00	0.00	0%
3	95.20	114.66	120%
4	133.88	160.23	120%
5	178.50	212.04	119%
6	229.08	269.89	118%

Not very large differences though. I was expecting a bit more given your explanation for how you calculated it. What I'm seeing here looks more like it could be possible rounding mid calc than an actual different calc. (My numbers weren't rounded till final calc in Excel).

My theory craft for fireball is acid balls. Fire resistance is common enough to be annoying not common enough for elemental adept.
Maximizing damage you're taking fireball and CO imho.

Two builds CO× scorching ray vs fureball/scorching ray+ energy substitution.

Assuming sorcerer.

 

[FrogReaver]

Chain Lightning

• +Empowered is... about +6? I don't really know this math, we'll say 56 per target for now

Empower on 10d8 Chain Lightning with 5 cha mod is +8.77 Damage.

*Note: for my earlier fireball estimates I had an error on spread sheet. They were actually a bit higher.
For the 10d6 fireball it should actually be +6.57 Damage.

 

[FrogReaver]

@Kinematics
Special Request can you add a line for chromatic orb with Elemental Adept Feat and explain your calculation. I've went mind blank on that one as well.