D&D (2024) Fireball/Lightning Bolt vs Chromatic Orb?

[Zardnaar]

A chromatic orb deals up 6d8 damage in a level 3 slot. Vs 8d6.

27 vs 28 average damage.

Ah Zard you drunken kiwi you're delirious. Fireball hits all of the enemies and it's just better!!! Downsides are it's fire damage though and also hits allies.

New chromatic orb only hits up to 4 targets in a level 3 slot, isn't guaranteed to bounce. Drunken kiwis are also bad at maff. And romance, culture, poetry and anything else vaguely French sounding.

At level 3 it bounces 70%+ of the time 92% level 4, 98%+ level 5. Ping pong.

How often do you really encounter mooks in large number? Even if you do there's aways other AoE spells depending on class.

Any spell casting class also gets access to chromatic orb via magic adept if they want it bad enough.

Another key difference is attack roll vs save. Not many ways to buff spell DCs. Lots of ways to boost attack rolls though. Innate sorcerery also exists and advantage isn't to hard to get. Empower spell and seeking spell also exist.

In practice chromatic orb bounces a lot past the early levels, critical hits almost guarantee a bounce. In essence it's a no save fireball level spell. My players often only use it when accuracy is maximized. Sorcerers have the easiest way here. Elven accuracy is also funny. Advantage feeds critical hits.

I've seen it dropped in level 5 and 6 spell slots. At those levels I'm comparing it more to chain lightning. 6 or 7 potentially targets. In essence a no save chain lightning.

Non sorcerers often have access to bless or faerie fire for boosting accuracy. Humans can also get access to one of them so wizards can get in on the madness. Warlocks can get everything via ancient secrets. Everybody can sling chromatic orb.

It also opens up a good level 3 blast spell for dragon sorcerer that are not lightning bolt or fireball. Acid dragon sorcerer seems good. Along with sorcerous burst. Generally I'm not a fan of blasting spells (I rate fireball B tier). But I'm liking what I'm seeing.

Anyone else seeing it in use? Not saying it's broken or OP but as far as damage dealing goes........ It's also fun to use.

 

[MarkB]

A small stumbling block with this spell, especially when levelling up in the field, was always its material component. It's like "okay, I can take this spell now, but I won't actually be able to use it until I get back to town and spend 50gp on a diamond. Maybe I'll just get something else for now."

 

[ezo]

A chromatic orb deals up 6d8 damage in a level 3 slot. Vs 8d6.

Well, I'll be checking the rest of your maths when I see your initial assumption is wrong...

A chromatic orb deals up to 5d8 damage in a level 3 slot... not 6d8. It starts at 3d8 and gains 1d8 for each level ABOVE 1st when upcast. So, last time I checked, 3 + 1 + 1 = 5, not 6.



Regardless, the concept of upcasting it makes it a "no-friendly fire" fireball/lightning bolt is a good one!

 

[FrogReaver]

Isn’t the problem that you have to hit with it as well as proc the bounce effect? Your numbers above are only for procing the bounce effect (after you’ve hit). When you factor hit chance in as well, it’s only actually effective when you have a very high chance to hit.

 

[Distracted DM]

Wow, it does what? Can someone post the full spell (and maybe the old one too for comparison)?

 

[ezo]

Chromatic Orb​

Level 1 Evocation (Sorcerer, Wizard)

Casting Time: Action

Range: 90 feet

Components: V, S, M (a diamond worth 50+ GP)

Duration: Instantaneous
You hurl an orb of energy at a target within range. Choose Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison, or Thunder for the type of orb you create, and then make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 3d8 damage of the chosen type.

If you roll the same number on two or more of the d8s, the orb leaps to a different target of your choice within 30 feet of the target. Make an attack roll against the new target, and make a new damage roll. The orb can’t leap again unless you cast the spell with a level 2+ spell slot.

Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The damage increases by 1d8 for each spell slot level above 1. The orb can leap a maximum number of times equal to the level of the slot expended, and a creature can be targeted only once by each casting of this spell.

---

Chromatic Orb
1st-level evocation

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 90 feet
Components: V, S, M (a diamond worth at least 50 gp)
Duration: Instantaneous

You hurl a 4-inch-diameter sphere of energy at a creature that you can see within range. You choose acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, or thunder for the type of orb you create, and then make a ranged spell attack against the target. If the attack hits, the creature takes 3d8 damage of the type you chose.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st.

 

[Distracted DM]

Chromatic Orb​

Level 1 Evocation (Sorcerer, Wizard)

Casting Time: Action

Range: 90 feet

Components: V, S, M (a diamond worth 50+ GP)

Duration: Instantaneous
You hurl an orb of energy at a target within range. Choose Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison, or Thunder for the type of orb you create, and then make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 3d8 damage of the chosen type.

If you roll the same number on two or more of the d8s, the orb leaps to a different target of your choice within 30 feet of the target. Make an attack roll against the new target, and make a new damage roll. The orb can’t leap again unless you cast the spell with a level 2+ spell slot.

Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The damage increases by 1d8 for each spell slot level above 1. The orb can leap a maximum number of times equal to the level of the slot expended, and a creature can be targeted only once by each casting of this spell.

---

Chromatic Orb
1st-level evocation

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 90 feet
Components: V, S, M (a diamond worth at least 50 gp)
Duration: Instantaneous

You hurl a 4-inch-diameter sphere of energy at a creature that you can see within range. You choose acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, or thunder for the type of orb you create, and then make a ranged spell attack against the target. If the attack hits, the creature takes 3d8 damage of the type you chose.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st.

Wow, I like the new one! I'm not a "everything has to be about 'fun'" person but spells should be fun/satisfying/enjoyable- I only ever used the old one for Takhisis and Tiamat cultists I don't think the old one got any use from my players...
I'll be taking this as a rare spell to drop in for games in a scroll or book. I wonder what other 5e24 spells are improved in such a way? Might be worth a thread.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Fireball also does half damage on a miss. Chromatic orb does not.

It seems both spells are competitive .

 

[ezo]

At 3rd-level Chromatic Orb (CO) averages 22.5 dmg vs. FB at 28. As @FrogReaver says, you have to hit, so I'll go with the 65% standard.

For a 3rd-level CO, you have the following:

No hit: 35%
Single hit (no leap): 13.325%
Single hit (leap, second target missed): 18.0863%
Two hits (no leap): 6.8857%
Two hits (leap, third target missed): 9.3461%
Three hits: 17.357%

At 22.5 damage on a hit, your expected damage is 26.08779 total. For FB, with 35% save, each target has expected damage of 23.1, but FB and other AoE spells are assumed to target a minimum of 2 targets, making the damage 46.2 minimum expected.

Each target will take more damage with FB, and you can easily get more targets, so unless you are SUPER worried about friendly fire, FB is still much better.

Compared to Chain Lightning (CL), CO at 6th-level is still a worse spell for damage. Total expected damage for CO is 61.6, while CL is 74.25 even if you just hit two targets--and odds are you will have more than two targets if you are going to use the spell. And with CL you don't have to worry about friendly fire.

The biggest issue is the attack roll, obviously. Now, as the OP states there are a lot of ways to buff attack rolls, and if you have targets with lower ACs, it becomes more viable.

Over all, the new CO is an "improvement" over the 2014 one... (hardly unexpected...), and can certainly have its uses, but in general I'll stick with FB and CL myself, however I can certainly see the appeal to others for a useful spell in close quarters or shorter range. Honestly, the more appealing aspect for CO IMO is you can choose different damage types, and aren't tied down to fire or lightning for FB and CL.

Finally, CO is a ranged attack, so you have to worry about disadvantage if you have a hostile creature within 5 feet of you (unless that changed in 2024?), with FB and CL you can be surrounded and it doesn't matter for the success of the spell.

DISCLAIMER: the bounce percentages I used in my calculations do not include the increased chances of bouncing when scoring critical hits. The improvement when adding it is negligible IMO.

 

[mellored]

Fireball also does half damage on a miss. Chromatic orb does not.

It seems both spells are competitive .

This.

Chromatic Orb is a good if you multiclass and don't have 3rd level spells, or just don't want that many attack spells prepared.

But fireball is still better damage dealer.