Bard Faerie Fire in Tier 1

[UngeheuerLich]

Although I disagree with the conclusion of the OP, it is noteworthy that fearyfire has the opportunity cost of your first action in combat and the risk it does nothing at all.
Bless for example could be precast and can't miss. On the otherhand the effect can be quite powerful and also has additional uses so it seems on par, but it no way a spell you should always cast without thinking.
It is very powerful if you get the drop on you ememies and a lot less so if the enemy swarms you before you get to act.
In my opinion that is how a spell should be designed.

 

[Autumn Bask]

You don't cast Faerie Fire on a single target. That's what your single target spells are for. It isn't a choice between Faerie Fire or Dissonant Whispers. I can take both. And the reason I would prefer both over Tasha's is because they're significantly less all-or-nothing spells (which other people in this thread have kindly detailed the mechanics of, so I don't have to).

 

[FrogReaver]

Very situation dependant.

If your group is primarily ranged (archer fighters, warlocks etc) I think FF is more useful because the group isn't as benefiting of OAs.

For a melee group it's a closer call, though personally I'm still not a big fan of a spell that by definition puts the big bad out of position.



Unlikely.

FF lights up the orcs allowing maximum hits by the rest of the party (ensures a sneak attack for the rogue, if the archers have sharpshooter it gives them a pretty good chance at a one shot kill per orc). You'll definitely affect 1 orc, chances are you'll get 2, small chance at 3, almost no chance at all 4. And if it hits (failed save) it sticks around unless the bard gets hit.

Dissonant wispers has a pretty good chance of affecting 1 orc but no more than that, though there's also 0 chance of affecting a friendly. If it affects the one, he's probably dead(if not from the damage then from your ally standing next to him), if he saves well, you'll be lucky to bring him down to half. And that's it, the other three cannot be affected.

I think FF is likely the clear winner.

So what you are saying is that if DW works 1 orc is likely instantly dead. A decent chance of instantly killing 1 enemy of 4 is much better than granting advantage to a few IMO

 

[FrogReaver]

You don't cast Faerie Fire on a single target. That's what your single target spells are for. It isn't a choice between Faerie Fire or Dissonant Whispers. I can take both. And the reason I would prefer both over Tasha's is because they're significantly less all-or-nothing spells (which other people in this thread have kindly detailed the mechanics of, so I don't have to).

The question is if you have these spells how often should you actually be using FF in tier 1. So far IMO Dissonant whispers seems better at the 4 orc scenario and just as good at the solo scenario.

 

[mortwatcher]

If we are white rooming this hard and you are never going past tier 1, you should just be taking the sleep spell really. Because in tier 1, that thing is pretty busted, but it falls off HARD once you get out of that tier.

FF on the other hand is pretty decent in T1 and still will have uses past it.

 

[Dausuul]

The bard in my party got some excellent use out of it against a couple of helmed horrors. It was hard for him to make it stick (Magic Resistance is a pain that way), but when it did, it was a godsend. Tasha's wouldn't have been nearly as effective; with a save at advantage every round, the victim would have rapidly recovered.

 

[Autumn Bask]

So what you are saying is that if DW works 1 orc is likely instantly dead. A decent chance of instantly killing 1 enemy of 4 is much better than granting advantage to a few IMO

In my experience, they serve different functions. I'll do all the rigorous stuff for you, since you're obviously not interested in putting too much thought into this. First, your Orc scenario. Four Orcs, and you Dissonant Whispers one. What happens?

Well, you have 65% chance of success, assuming the Bard's Spell Save DC is 14 and your using the standard CR 1/2 Orc Stat Block. So 65% of the time, you will deal 3d6 damage and Fear said singular Orc. 35% of the time you deal half that damage and that's it. The average damage of 3d6 is 10.5 and the average damage of 3d6/2 is 5(yeah, dice math is weird). You can find the average damage that you can expect from casting this spell by using a very simple equation.

(10.5*0.65) + (5*0.35) = 8.575 and a 65% Fear chance.

Faerie Fire is slightly less likely to hit each individual Orc, as they have +1 to Dex Saves vs their +0 to Wis Saves, which is what Dissonant Whispers targets. So, Faerie Fire has a 60% chance to affect each target and a 40% chance to not affect each target. Iterative probability, yada, yada.

1-(0.4^4) = 0.9744 or a 97.44% chance to grant advantage on at least one target. An 82.08% chance of hitting two. A 47.52% chance of hitting three. And a 12.96% chance to hit all four.

Orcs have 13 AC and our non-casters have +6 to Hit (for simplicity, I'm assuming everyone has 18 in their primary attacking stat. Same goes for all my Bard calculations). This means advantage will increase the average DPR of every non-spellcaster in the party by ~25% and a flat +21% chance To Hit (the extra 4% to Damage vs. Hit Chance comes from the potential to crit. Most Parties have 2-3 non-casters, but let's assume 2 just to be fair. Let's go with a Level 2 Fighter w/ a Greatsword and a Warlock using Eldritch Blast + Hex.

They deal 8.05 + 9.38 = 17.43 total DPR.
17.48 * 0.25 = a 4.37 increase to the party's damage per round. If the Faerie Fire stays in play for 2 rounds, it will have contributed a bit more damage than Dissonant Whispers - the 65% chance to Fear. After three rounds, it will have contributed significantly more to damage than Dissonant Whispers would have. Now imagine if you have three Attack Roll-based classes in your party, some of whom, like Moon Druid or Battlemaster, can CC on a successful hit. And your Rogue will love you.

Which is kinda the hidden, true majesty of Faerie Fire. Your party will appreciate you for it, because it makes them do things better.

And as someone else mentioned, one targets Dex and the other targets Wis. One is a single target damage and CC. The other is an indirect AoE Buff/Debuff. Go play a Bard, take both spells, and see what I mean. Theorycrafting in these super limited scenarios will only take you so far. And I have no idea why you think you can generalize the entire experience of playing Tier 1 with this four Orc scenario. And, I've tried to hold back from asking this, cause I feel it's rude, but I have no idea if you have ever played any of the classes your talking about, or even if you've played 5e at all. (I'll believe you if you tell me you have. I just want to make sure we're on the same page in, at the very least, that regard.)

I hate math.

EDIT: Also, for those of you who are confused by the seemingly hyperbolic exasperation, there's some baggage from another thread here.

Faerie Fire isn't very good in tier 1, in fact I think I'll start a thread about that.

 

[Mort]

So what you are saying is that if DW works 1 orc is likely instantly dead. A decent chance of instantly killing 1 enemy of 4 is much better than granting advantage to a few IMO

Even in this scenario, the "instantly dead" depends on having a melee party AND having relatively low HP opponents (such as orcs).And even then you get 1 vs. a potential huge benefit against 2 or even 3.

Change the scenario to 2 Gargoyles,for ex. (still a tier 1 scenario) - Dissonant Whispers won't be as useful - especially considering the encounter is much more likely at range.

More importantly, this discussion ignores the fact that the bard is not nearly as spell starved as the sorcerer or the warlock. The Bard can take both spells and have room for 2 more.

And thanks to [MENTION=6986805]Autumn Bask[/MENTION] who did a lot more heavy lifting on this scenario so I don't have to.

 

[5ekyu]

In my experience, they serve different functions. I'll do all the rigorous stuff for you, since you're obviously not interested in putting too much thought into this. First, your Orc scenario. Four Orcs, and you Dissonant Whispers one. What happens?

Well, you have 65% chance of success, assuming the Bard's Spell Save DC is 14 and your using the standard CR 1/2 Orc Stat Block. So 65% of the time, you will deal 3d6 damage and Fear said singular Orc. 35% of the time you deal half that damage and that's it. The average damage of 3d6 is 10.5 and the average damage of 3d6/2 is 5(yeah, dice math is weird). You can find the average damage that you can expect from casting this spell by using a very simple equation.

(10.5*0.65) + (5*0.35) = 8.575 and a 65% Fear chance.

Faerie Fire is slightly less likely to hit each individual Orc, as they have +1 to Dex Saves vs their +0 to Wis Saves, which is what Dissonant Whispers targets. So, Faerie Fire has a 60% chance to affect each target and a 40% chance to not affect each target. Iterative probability, yada, yada.

1-(0.4^4) = 0.9744 or a 97.44% chance to grant advantage on at least one target. An 82.08% chance of hitting two. A 47.52% chance of hitting three. And a 12.96% chance to hit all four.

Orcs have 13 AC and our non-casters have +6 to Hit (for simplicity, I'm assuming everyone has 18 in their primary attacking stat. Same goes for all my Bard calculations). This means advantage will increase the average DPR of every non-spellcaster in the party by ~25% and a flat +21% chance To Hit (the extra 4% to Damage vs. Hit Chance comes from the potential to crit. Most Parties have 2-3 non-casters, but let's assume 2 just to be fair. Let's go with a Level 2 Fighter w/ a Greatsword and a Warlock using Eldritch Blast + Hex.

They deal 8.05 + 9.38 = 17.43 total DPR.
17.48 * 0.25 = a 4.37 increase to the party's damage per round. If the Faerie Fire stays in play for 2 rounds, it will have contributed a bit more damage than Dissonant Whispers - the 65% chance to Fear. After three rounds, it will have contributed significantly more to damage than Dissonant Whispers would have. Now imagine if you have three Attack Roll-based classes in your party, some of whom, like Moon Druid or Battlemaster, can CC on a successful hit. And your Rogue will love you.

Which is kinda the hidden, true majesty of Faerie Fire. Your party will appreciate you for it, because it makes them do things better.

And as someone else mentioned, one targets Dex and the other targets Wis. One is a single target damage and CC. The other is an indirect AoE Buff/Debuff. Go play a Bard, take both spells, and see what I mean. Theorycrafting in these super limited scenarios will only take you so far. And I have no idea why you think you can generalize the entire experience of playing Tier 1 with this four Orc scenario. And, I've tried to hold back from asking this, cause I feel it's rude, but I have no idea if you have ever played any of the classes your talking about, or even if you've played 5e at all. (I'll believe you if you tell me you have. I just want to make sure we're on the same page in, at the very least, that regard.)

I hate math.

EDIT: Also, for those of you who are confused by the seemingly hyperbolic exasperation, there's some baggage from another thread here.

Whaaaaattt?

Are you hinting that this may not be a completely unbiased assessment and analysis but that the OP may be trying to prove a point?

"Typical."

 

[FrogReaver]

Whaaaaattt?

Are you hinting that this may not be a completely unbiased assessment and analysis but that the OP may be trying to prove a point?

"Typical."

I think you have it backwards. My analysis informed my conclusion.