D&D (2024) Fireball is a C Tier Spell

[Zardnaar]

Fireball is S tier. Why? It’s iconic. Demonstrating the PC’s first real jump in power. Everyone knows it and a distinct minority hate it. If it were any other spell I probably would not have posted a reply but fireball will always be my choice unless I am I the Nine Hells. Rock on fireball!

Iconic doesn't make it S tier. Magic missile is iconic. It's barely usable imho.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I like 3rd level combat magic to be something not terribly common. It's what makes sense in the world to me. Sure, some opponents are going to plan around the possibilty their targets have some sort of magic grenades, but most won't.

I don't think most real world muggers/bandits (current or historical) considered their targets would potentially carry a grenade. I'd consider fireball to be less relatively common and available than grenades.

In a D&D military situation, fireballs would also be less common than grenades (and similar) in the real world.

While many powerful, intelligent, or "always prepared" types would avoid bunching up for a devastating AoE, for most opponents and their leaders you are facing it has never and will never come up, and they aren't going to plan their tactics around it, any more than around dominate spells and similar.

Or in other words, enemies being prepared for the possibilty of fireballs is something I consider highly situational.

 

[Zardnaar]

I like 3rd level combat magic to be something not terribly common. It's what makes sense in the world to me. Sure, some opponents are going to plan around the possibilty their targets have some sort of magic grenades, but most won't.

I don't think most real world muggers/bandits (current or historical) considered their targets would potentially carry a grenade. I'd consider fireball to be less relatively common and available than grenades.

In a D&D military situation, fireballs would also be less common than grenades (and similar) in the real world.

While many powerful, intelligent, or "always prepared" types would avoid bunching up for a devastating AoE, for most opponents and their leaders you are facing it has never and will never come up, and they aren't going to plan their tactics around it, any more than around dominate spells and similar.

Or in other words, enemies being prepared for the possibilty of fireballs is something I consider highly situational.

I. A world where fireball exists enemies of 10 intelligence probably know some basics. Eg spread out in combat.

12 or higher they should definitely know.

I don't meyagame to that extent. I might if the NPCs have encountered the PCs before or know what they can do.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

Again, it's not about metaknowledge as much as general tactics, turn order, and initiative. Perfect clumps of enemies shouldn't happen that often. Would a ranged enemy use cover available, regardless of fireball knowledge? Will orcs use a dash action and become a staggered formation ASAP? Just the random distributions of combat do this... not metaknowledge

 

[wizard71]

Iconic doesn't make it S tier. Magic missile is iconic. It's barely usable imho.

It is the go to spell at 3rd level. It’s a gigantic leap in power and my first choice unless the campaign specifically restricts it. Since I play sorcerers and evoke wizards it’s not suboptimal unless I am encountering fire immunity monsters or environments that specifically negate it. It is S tier.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Again, it's not about metaknowledge as much as general tactics, turn order, and initiative. Perfect clumps of enemies shouldn't happen that often. Would a ranged enemy use cover available, regardless of fireball knowledge? Will orcs use a dash action and become a staggered formation ASAP? Just the random distributions of combat do this... not metaknowledge

It depends on the enemy. Orcs might adopt anti-caster tactics, zombies or wolves, not so much.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

It depends on the enemy. Orcs might adopt anti-caster tactics, zombies or wolves, not so much.

But what I keep trying to say is it's not "anti-caster tactics" I'm saying turn order and even an enemy straight-bolting causes staggered formation. Particularly when I run a wolf pack. I think a majority of the enemies I run do this off the nature of the game more than metaknowledge. Every so often if they have a piss-poor initiative I will see them clustered together neatly... if they had a reason for that (dining at a cannibalistic table or something)

 

[Paul Farquhar]

But what I keep trying to say is it's not "anti-caster tactics" I'm saying turn order and even an enemy straight-bolting causes staggered formation. Particularly when I run a wolf pack. I think a majority of the enemies I run do this off the nature of the game more than metaknowledge. Every so often if they have a piss-poor initiative I will see them clustered together neatly... if they had a reason for that (dining at a cannibalistic table or something)

If you want naturalistic tactics, those orcs should form a wedge formation. Which would make them more vulnerable to fireball, not less.

 

[wizard71]

But what I keep trying to say is it's not "anti-caster tactics" I'm saying turn order and even an enemy straight-bolting causes staggered formation. Particularly when I run a wolf pack. I think a majority of the enemies I run do this off the nature of the game more than metaknowledge. Every so often if they have a piss-poor initiative I will see them clustered together neatly... if they had a reason for that (dining at a cannibalistic table or something)

Actually wolves will clump together because of pack tactics. Wolves attack en masse IRL. They would be very susceptible to AOE. The radius for fireball is huge and it hits most creatures on most maps. You don’t want extremely loose formations because it’s a simple way to get picked off for forgiveness fire. If you are being hit with fireballs you want to hug enemy lines and be as compact as possible to increase the risk of friendly fire.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

But DnD doesn't work en-masse, unless that is how turn order rolls out for you. The also have frontguard, rearguard, etc... but more likely aggressive creatures are just mechanically going to B-line right at the enemy, and surround them. The orc is going to run aggressively & maybe even bonus-dash. The wolves won't forgo their turns waiting to move in a perfect clump in unison. The orcs won't often forgo their move to form in-unison wedges. Once they have met up with your martials sure, but until then all bets are off as to how the movement pattern shakes out & I usually see it pretty staggered between monsters and the party