D&D General Gish Thoughts

[Undrave]

It's definitely a unique fusion... but what's it a fusion of?

Fighter + Wizard. Which is the core thesis is that we tend to make "Fighter does Magic".

Is it really a fighter though? It really is just a fighter in the sense of ‘one who fights with a martial weapon’. It’s not like an Eldritch Knight that can shoot a cantrip with one hand and on the next turn swing his sword (which is the WORST way to make a Gish, IMO), the Swordmage does both at the same time and creates unique effect using its unique powers. It defends in a way that’s different from the close and personal style of the Fighter and uses magical effects to improve it. They don’t even use heavy armor.

I think I might softly argue the Rogue/Caster has its own archetypal niche; there were several PrCs that touched on the concept in 3e, and even a base class (the Spellthief).

Barbarian/Caster has historically been challenging since the initial concept of the class was not only non-magic but anti-magic, and then the class was barely extant in 2e. Even in 5e, barbarian has generally been viewed as in opposition to casters, which is why rage doesn't allow for spellcasting or concentration effects. I've seen a few third party attempts over the years as the "Rage Mage" concept, and PF even had it as a base class (the barbarian/sorcerer hybrid bloodrager), but it never seems to get a lot of traction, probably due to the archetype dissonance caused by barbarian's initial concept.

I think the Warden is a great Barbarian Gish, where the 'Rages' were basically magical transformations. In this case it's more of a Barbarian/Druid, due to channelling Primal Spirits, than Barbarian/Wizard but it's precisely why it works so well.

I think that's actually the point and why it as good at being a gish.

When I say 'Gish', I mean a swordsman with a fantastical and magical sword style, not a wizard with a sword.

Spell in D&D are a very specific thing that enforce a very specific fantasy for the spellcaster. By removing the idea of the gish using spells and instead granting them cool magisword strikes, we achieve a better philosophy and design for the gish.

Yes! Exactly!

Once again, I urge you to multiclass.

Multiclassing just means you use a sword with one hand and a spell with the other, it’s not a real Gish that combines them together.

 

[Voadam]

Hexblade Warlock seems the current all in one class arcane gish for 5e if you don't consider paladins, rangers, war domain clerics, eldritch knight fighters, or spellblade wizards to be sufficiently up to the magical swordsman concept.

 

[Corinnguard]

Multiclassing just means you use a sword with one hand and a spell with the other, it’s not a real Gish that combines them together.

If taking a class is like taking up a hobby, then multiclassing (as it is seen in D&D) is periodically switching between one or more hobbies. You spend some time pursuing one hobby and then you leave it behind for your other hobby for another period of time. Being a Gish otoh is doing both hobbies at the same exact time. A Fighter/Wizard Gish has a learned of a way to be both a melee combatant and a spellcaster without multiclassing.

 

[Laurefindel]

The artificer sounds like a good starting point to built a gish class that isn't just a fighter-y wizard or a multiclass.

Some spells, cantrips, and because of its (rather awkward) half-caster-but-rounded-up-instead-or-rounded-down clause, access to magic from level 1. Infusions are a good model for magic weapon effects/enhancements, and the battlesmith brings an antecedant for medium armor and extra attack at level 5. whether the extra attack is part of a subclass or part of the main class like paladin/ranger mostly depends on what subclasses you're looking for, but I'd start building from the artificer's frame.

 

[Undrave]

If taking a class is like taking up a hobby, then multiclassing (as it is seen in D&D) is periodically switching between one or more hobbies. You spend some time pursuing one hobby and then you leave it behind for your other hobby for another period of time. Being a Gish otoh is doing both hobbies at the same exact time. A Fighter/Wizard Gish has a learned of a way to be both a melee combatant and a spellcaster without multiclassing.

Exactly! You get it!

 

[Voadam]

Well, the gish concept did grow out of AD&D F/MUs, so it's not too surprising the core "gish" concept would generally be based around the merging of the two classic classes.

Yes. Gish is literally the name for a 1e Githyanki non-leader multiclassed Fighter/Magic-User.

 

[Vaalingrade]

well, what do magic sword strikes do beyond smite foes it needs to be more than that

Push, Pull, Ignite, Rime in Frost, Teleport on swing, teleport on strike, cover the blade with an element, sword beam, pull or push the wielder, the list goes on.

General Magic Swordsman stuff.

 

[Clint_L]

If taking a class is like taking up a hobby, then multiclassing (as it is seen in D&D) is periodically switching between one or more hobbies. You spend some time pursuing one hobby and then you leave it behind for your other hobby for another period of time. Being a Gish otoh is doing both hobbies at the same exact time. A Fighter/Wizard Gish has a learned of a way to be both a melee combatant and a spellcaster without multiclassing.

This is how multi-classing used to work. In 1e (where the Gish concept comes from), you earned experience in both (or all three) of your classes at the same time. But this worked because experience kept your progression slower, since the only way to level was through earning experience points, and thus you levelled at approximately half (or a third) the speed of single-classed characters (I'm aware that due to the way experience points scaled, there is some variability). There were also level limits imposed on most classes available to multi-class, since it was an option for non-humans only.

How do you make that work in 5e, where experience points are not used at many tables, and where players expect to level at the same rate? Obviously, if your fighter/wizard can be level 5 in both classes in the same amount of play it takes my fighter to be level 5, that's unfair and unbalanced. So how do you fix it?

One obvious solution would be to simply do 5e multi-classing, and switch classes every time you level (e.g. go fighter 1->wizard 1->fighter 2->wizard 2->fighter 3 and so on). But I get the sense that this would be unsatisfying for most players who post about playing a Gish, even though it would produce pretty much the same mechanical result as 1e multi-classing.

Or I suppose if doing milestone levelling, the Gish could just level half as often, but level both classes at the same time.

 

[Baron Opal II]

How do you make that work in 5e, where experience points are not used at many tables, and where players expect to level at the same rate? Obviously, if your fighter/wizard can be level 5 in both classes in the same amount of play it takes my fighter to be level 5, that's unfair and unbalanced. So how do you fix it?

For me, I came up with a specific level advancement table. I'm not sure how that would work with 5e and all of the extra bells and whistles, but it might do.

Single -- Dual
1 -- 1/0
2 -- 1/1
3 -- 2/1
4 -- 2/2
5 -- 3/3
6 -- 4/4
7 -- 5/5
8 -- 6/6
9 -- 7/7

And so on. You do have to pick a "primary" class, but you gain a benefit of the secondary. From 4th level on your character has the benefit of two classes at two levels lower than those with a single class. My group has found this satisfactory.

 

[Clint_L]

For me, I came up with a specific level advancement table. I'm not sure how that would work with 5e and all of the extra bells and whistles, but it might do.

Single -- Dual
1 -- 1/0
2 -- 1/1
3 -- 2/1
4 -- 2/2
5 -- 3/3
6 -- 4/4
7 -- 5/5
8 -- 6/6
9 -- 7/7

And so on. You do have to pick a "primary" class, but you gain a benefit of the secondary. From 4th level on your character has the benefit of two classes at two levels lower than those with a single class. My group has found this satisfactory.

Hmmm...that seems very unbalanced to me - in effect, you could be either a level 20 fighter, or a level 18 fighter/level 18 wizard. I know which I would choose. Is an extra attack and ability score improvement/feat really comparable to 18 levels of wizard? Do any of your players choose single class, if the campaign goes past level 5 or so?