D&D (2024) Martials: damage scaling like cantrips?

[mellored]

Or is this already covered, mathematically? By their extra attack actions?

Yes.
Mainly, you get to add your ability modifier to damage for weapon attacks.
So instead of 2d8, you get 1d8+4+1d8+4.

And they added extra effects to weapons in 2024 via weapon masteries. So you can push, topple, slow, ect... and you can do it twice.

Did 4e do something like this.

Yes. You dealt 2|W| damage, or 2 times your weapon damage.
Pathfinder 2e also scales damage instead of attacks.

 

[Clint_L]

I saw a meme about this the other day and it got me thinking… attack cantrips have damage dice that scale with caster level, right? Sometimes doing other effects as well.

My question is: what if martial classes (eg Fighter, Paladin, Ranger and Barbarian) also had their melee weapon damage scale up?

Eg at 5th level, the Fighter gets an extra damage die to their chosen weapons (masteries). So a longsword does 2d8 (2d10 two handed).

Or is this already covered, mathematically? By their extra attack actions?

Did 4e do something like this?

Being a simpleton like me, who is terrible at math, it makes sense considering the amazing stuff spellcasters can do at higher levels.

Damage per attack heavily favours martials in 5e, and particularly if you are playing the 2024 rules update. Aside from a few really good area of effect damage spells, the “amazing stuff casters can do at high levels” is hard to quantify in the same way - it’s a bit apples and oranges.

But if a level 20 spellcaster is just chucking cantrips, they aren’t contributing much. A level 20 firebolt, for example, is doing around 22 damage if all of them hit. A level 20 martial should be doing upwards of three times that much damage per round. Probably a lot more.

Cantrips are there so spellcasters always have some sort of magical option, but with a few notable exceptions they aren’t supposed to be a primary option, unlike weapon attacks for martial classes.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Is the other way to ask the question to say, should cantrips scale at all? And would this stay on-par with martials? And are/should cantrips be the go-to above level 5?

I do not know the answer, I'm not a math person as well. It had felt to me that cantrips at 5th and 11th level seem to deal more than the fighter at my table per swing, but then it is only one attack instead of 2 or 3.

Yes, they deal more damage per swing but less overall given expected opposition. A fifth level fighter with +3 in stat could be expected to do 0.6*(1d8+3)*2 = 9 DPR whereas the wizard with firebolt would be doing 0.6(2*d10) = 6.6

 

[mellored]

that works also, but I would still lean towards more attacks than more damage per attack.

more attacks is more consistent and can temper the swinginess of d20.

It also takes more time to roll all that.

And of course, you can split the difference.
Paladins get 2 attacks and +1d8 per attack.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I would say that is covered by extra attack,

The problem is everyone and their dog now gets extra attack, and also gets to sub in a cantrip as an attack. So for the levels people actually play, the fighter is the chump attacking twice with regular attacks while the valor bard is attacking twice and subbing in a greenflame blade or something for more damage. Oh and is a full 9 level spellcaster with bardic inspiration dice rivaling superiority dice.

Masteries should have been like the BG3 weapon special abilities (with additional weapon dice of damage) so you can sub in one of them instead of an attack. As is, they just stack on top of your greenflame blade spam.

 

[Clint_L]

Yes, they deal more damage per swing but less overall given expected opposition. A fifth level fighter with +3 in stat could be expected to do 0.6*(1d8+3)*2 = 9 DPR whereas the wizard with firebolt would be doing 0.6(2*d10) = 6.6

If a level 5 fighter, even one defensively specced like that one presumably is, is only doing 9 DPR they need help.

Why are they only +3 in stat? Level 5 and not even a +1 weapon? No weapon mastery? What combat style? Not to mention all the other potential damage boosters that stack on weapon damage and which a cantrip generally lacks.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

If a level 5 fighter, even one defensively specced like that one presumably is, is only doing 9 DPR they need help.

Why are they only +3 in stat? Level 5 and not even a +1 weapon? No weapon mastery? What combat style? Not to mention all the other potential damage boosters that stack on weapon damage and which a cantrip generally lacks.

I was giving a simple example for a person that they were not a math person of the math. Keeping it simple and not trying to show the most optimised options.
Is that ok?

 

[Clint_L]

I was giving a simple example for a person that they were not a math person of the math. Keeping it simple and not trying to show the most optimised options.
Is that ok?

Most optimized options? The things I mentioned are standard, and I assume that the point is to give an accurate sense of what each is actually doing - your example gives the impression that the fighter is doing just a few points better than a wizard using firebolt, and that is not remotely the case. If you minimize those factors, then yeah, cantrips won’t seem as far behind.

TLDR: the reason weapon damage doesn’t multiply when martial classes go up in levels is that, unlike cantrips, weapon attacks stack with all kinds of multipliers that already cause them to far exceed what a normal cantrip can do for DPR.

Is that even arguable?

 

[Theory of Games]

My question is: what if martial classes (eg Fighter, Paladin, Ranger and Barbarian) also had their melee weapon damage scale up?

It's why Fighters suck - Sneak Attack and some spells scale. Fighters should have scaling damage with at least one weapon type (swords, axes, polearms, whatever - but all weapons is ideal).

Figure @ L9:

• Rogues have a 5d6 Sneak Attack
• Casters have spells delivering 5d4+
• Fighters get +1 attack (L5)

Fighters need the same kind of DPA instead of features that don't unleash the power of the class. We will continue to have the "LFQW" debate until the Fighter is fixed.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Most optimized options? The things I mentioned are standard, and I assume that the point is to give an accurate sense of what each is actually doing - your example gives the impression that the fighter is doing just a few points better than a wizard using firebolt, and that is not remotely the case. If you minimize those factors, then yeah, cantrips won’t seem as far behind.

TLDR: the reason weapon damage doesn’t multiply when martial classes go up in levels is that, unlike cantrips, weapon attacks stack with all kinds of multipliers that already cause them to far exceed what a normal cantrip can do for DPR.

Is that even arguable?

I gave a simple example; I did not feel the need to get into it any more than that because I presumed that the other person could work the rest out for themselves from my example. Feel free to give your own answer.