Bardic Knowledge, when to use it?

[Arravis]

One of my players believes that Bardic Knowledge should be rolled anytime a Knowledge skill check called for. If the party party meets a Balor, he wishes to make a Bardic Knowledge check to see if he knows of the creature (as per Knowledge Planes). If he comes across some drow, he wishes to use the Bardic Knowledge check to see if he can know of them, etc.

I always saw Bardic Knowledge as being about specific people, places or things, not more generalized concepts. If he meets a random obscure drow, you can’t use Bardic Knowledge. If he meets Nathiria Lord Empress of the Drow Conclave, a Bardic Knowledge check would be in order (though I'd raise the DC, surface-race bard would have little access to stories and such of the drow.)

Anyway, when should Bardic Knowledge be used? When is appropriate, when is it not?

 

[Ambrus]

IMHO, bards don't have so much going for them that their bardic knowledge should be unnecessarily limited. Bardic knowledge is one of the few things that they have that the other base classes don't; storytelling is what bards are all about. Many stories aren't historical accounts of specific people, places and events but do contain generally useful folklore about odd creatures in general. In one story a fictional hero wards off vampires with a garland of garlic or takes refuge from them in a house with mirrors. Another tale tells of an evil fairy lord who is driven off by a child holding an iron nail. That's what folklore is, a fun way of remembering and conveying important information to listeners. I'd say that allowing a Bardic Knowledge check instead of any other standard Knowledge check is a good rule of thumb and hardly overpowering for the Bard. Since the bard's knowledge is more generalized than someone who's specifically studied in a particular field I'd probably increase any such Bardic Knowledge check DC by a flat +5 to favor those who devote skill points to a particular field of study. And yes, if the bard does have ranks in the appropriate Knowledge I'd let him roll twice to see if he recalls the appropriate information. Why penalize a player for choosing to focus so much in a particular field of study? You might as well let the bard player enjoy his class ability.

 

[darthkilmor]

per the SRD

Bardic Knowledge

A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the bard has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.)

A successful bardic knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A bard may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random.

I would say a Balor or drow is not a local notable person, legendary item, or noteworthy place.
edit: and thus not usable. If the bard met say, a mayor of a town, a BK check might be in order. but certainly not for seomthing like "ok, whats a balor/drow weak against?".

 

[irdeggman]

Actually you are correct per the SRD:

Bardic Knowledge: A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the bard has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.)

A successful bardic knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A bard may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random.

DC Type of Knowledge
10 Common, known by at least a substantial minority drinking; common legends of the local population.
20 Uncommon but available, known by only a few people legends.
25 Obscure, known by few, hard to come by.
30 Extremely obscure, known by very few, possibly forgotten by most who once knew it, possibly known only by those who don’t understand the significance of the knowledge.

It is not a general knowledge check or a substitution for other knowledge skills.

 

[Arravis]

It's not an issue of balance, lot's of other classes get Bardic Knowledge. The character in question isn't a bard, but his prestige class gives him the Bardic Knowledge ability.

Bards get Knowledge skills as a class skill for a reason, if Bardic Knowledge replaced them, then why have the skills?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Actually, if you're in the Abyss I'd definitely consider a balor one of the "local, notable people" that a bard might come across.

I agree with Ambrus, and think the RAW give me enough wiggle room to rule such. Though I wouldn't argue with a DM who was more strict in his interpretation of the ability.

 

[Arravis]

I just can't imagine that the intended use was to either make Knowledge skills unnecessary or to give two rolls for the same information. It doesn't seem in the spirit, or in the text, of the Bardic Knowledge ability at all.

And I don't see how a non-unique, non-specific Balor would fall under the parameters of this ability, no matter how powerful the creature.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I just can't imagine that the intended use was to either make Knowledge skills unnecessary or to give two rolls for the same information. It doesn't seem in the spirit, or in the text, of the Bardic Knowledge ability at all.

I suppose we simply disagree about the spirit of the ability. I see Bardic Knowledge as being knowledge about "a little bit of everything." i.e. it's in the spirit of the "jack of all trades, master of none" flavor of the class. So a bard has a chance to know anything about anything, just not as good a chance as a PC that's actually studied that field (since his info would come from old songs and stories, not study.) Makes perfect sense to me. And yes, if a particular bard has also studied the subject in question, then two rolls. One for whether or not he came across the information in his academic studies. Another for whether or not he heard a song or story about it during his travels.

And I don't see how a non-unique, non-specific Balor would fall under the parameters of this ability, no matter how powerful the creature.

The balors are the overlords of demonkind. Saying "a non-unique, non-specific Balor" is like saying "a non-unique, non-specific Count" or "A non-unique, non-specific Duke." They're the rulers of the Abyss. Sure, they aren't Demon Princes, but they aren't dretches either. Every balor has a name and a demesne, whether the PCs know it or not.

 

[Arravis]

The rules as written just don't support that point of view though. They're pretty specific in what it covers.
Why have any knowledge skills if it's supposed to be a "know-all"?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Why have any knowledge skills if it's supposed to be a "know-all"?

Because only Bards get Bardic Knowledge?