Bardic Knowledge, when to use it?

[Kazinsky]

Different Data Types from Different Sources

Bardic Knowledge check on a Balor:
[bq]"You recall the story of a plane-hopping adventurer that tangled with a Balor, specifically the fight where the adventurer was fooled into the Undead Skarl Kingdom by the Balor's evil plan."[/bq]

Knowledge (the Planes) check on a Balor:
[bq]"Your knowledge of the planes has taught you that Balors come from insert plane where they are at the top of the food chain, acting as leaders of vast demonic armies. Since you rolled a DC 30 on your check, you also know that they are fearsome in combat, employing a great sword and a flaming whip coupled with powerful arcane spells to terrifying effect."[/bq]

What I'm getting at here is that you may be blurring the lines between Knowledge checks and Bardic Knowledge checks. IMC, I have always delineated them with anecdotal / folkloric information from the BK checks and text-book / academic information from the Knowledge checks.

Perhaps with that, you won't see Bardic Knowledge as a replacement for Knowledge checks and you will make your player happy in that he can use it in addition to his normal Knowledge checks to glean some other facet of information from the topic at hand.

 

[Arravis]

Lord Pendragon: Bards are not the only class, by any stretch, that gets Bardic Knowledge. Many prestige classes that have nothing to do with bards give the Bardic Knowledge ability. Loremaster out of the DMG is a prime example of that.

Kazinsky: That example falls under my interpertation of Bardic Knowledge. Your Balor is a specific unique one, thus covered by Bardic Knowledge. Such knowledge may in no way be useful (or it could be) to a situation where a different balor is met.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Lord Pendragon: Bards are not the only class, by any stretch, that gets Bardic Knowledge. Many prestige classes that have nothing to do with bards give the Bardic Knowledge ability. Loremaster out of the DMG is a prime example of that.

*shrug* So two classes, then. I don't really know about "many" prestige classes getting the ability, and even if they did, the core rules weren't written or balanced to take into account everything written thereafter by themselves or others. How could they be?

Kazinsky: That example falls under my interpertation of Bardic Knowledge. Your Balor is a specific unique one, thus covered by Bardic Knowledge. Such knowledge may in no way be useful (or it could be) to a situation where a different balor is met.

If Bardic Knowledge is going to "in no way be useful," then what is the point of the ability?

 

[Arravis]

Umm, you're way off on that one. From memory and on a quick glance I know these that use Bardic Knowledge that in no way require Bard levels.

Ardent Dilettante from Planar Handbook
Ollam from Complete Adventurer
Yakuza from Oriental Adventures
Lore Delver from Races of Destiny
Harper Scout from Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Harper Mage from Magic of Faerun
Harper Priest from Magic of Faerun
Harper Agent from Player's Guide to Faerun
Jordain Vizier from Shining South
Loremaster from the DMG, as already mentioned.

Bardic Knowledge as written is quite useful; it gives you "relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places." It is NOT a replacement for Knowledge skills. Otherwise it cheapens the value of all Knowledge skills to every class that doesn't have this ability. Many classes get 2 skill points a level; every point put into such skills is hard earned. The power as exactly written gives quite a leg-up. I see no evidence at all that it completely overlaps and replaces Knowledge skills.

 

[Cygnus]

Just chiming in to add my two cents. Kazinski is spot on for this one. The bard may or may not know a story that mentions a Balor. The way it differs from Knowledge: Planes (KP) is that the KP user would know (if the dc is beaten) that the Balor has an SR; i.e., specifics. The Bardic Knowledge check might mean that the bard remembers a ballad in which Lord Soanso's mighty spells sometimes fizzled in the dread presence of the Balor (or the "mighty beast" who’s description matches that of the Balor).

'Nough said (IMHO).

 

[Synthetik Fish]

Just to put it simply... here's my humble differentiation of the two:

Bardic Knowledge should be used to see if the [bard] knows something about a specific character. Joe Peasant isn't anyone in paticular (hey, the truth hurts) and therefore a bard wouldn't really know about him. Joe Innskeeper isn't really anybody, either. HOWEVER, The innskeeper at a paticularly prestigious inn, or one that has a lot of traffic or may have customers that frequent it that the bard also knows, then yes; the bard might get a BK check on that (the DC being pretty high, as the innkeeper wouldn't have the reknowned of say, a king.)

Similarly, Bardic Knowledge could be used to know of some myths of a creature (a Balor was being used.) A success might yield some tales of adventurers, etc., jouryneying into the foul abyss of its lair, (and indeed might disclose the location of a nearby Balor? idk.) But wouldn't necessarily disclose specific "scientific" facts, like a knowledge check would.

Think of Bardic Knowledge checks as information that you would get out of a really really big book of Lore, whereas normal Knowledge checks would be out of say, college textbooks. They both might convery some of the same information, but it would be presented differently.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

A success might yield some tales of adventurers, etc., jouryneying into the fowl abyss of its lair,

[In?]Appropriate snappy comebacks:

1. What is it, some kind of chicken demon?
2. From whence only the cowards returned?
3. Where one should make sure to duck under the hoary remains of previous adventures?
4. Abandon all yolk, ye who enter here!
5. I bet you weren't egg-specting that!

 

[Synthetik Fish]

A success might yield some tales of adventurers, etc., jouryneying into the foul abyss of its lair, (and indeed might disclose the location of a nearby Balor? idk.)

I don't know what you are talking about...

 

[dshai527]

[In?]Appropriate snappy comebacks:

1. What is it, some kind of chicken demon?
2. From whence only the cowards returned?
3. Where one should make sure to duck under the hoary remains of previous adventures?
4. Abandon all yolk, ye who enter here!
5. I bet you weren't egg-specting that!

you're killing me...

Why did the chicken cross its lair
Which came first the chicken or the lair
A monsters gotta eat...ready made snacks just laying about

 

[Synthetik Fish]

the humor...

wow, i didn't know that the bar could be lowered that low