"Bargaining" with players?

[Mouseferatu]

A few days ago, in a thread I can no longer recall, someone made mention of a technique referred to as bargaining with the players. In essence, the play gets permission to attempt something slightly rule-breaking--on the understanding that, if he fails, the results will be equally rule-breaking, and narratively significant.

Does anyone know where this concept came from, and where I can read about it in more detail?

 

[fanboy2000]

I'm only familiar of this from actual play, not from any kind of codification of the behavior like what you might read about in a Robin Laws book. I think it's just one of those things people experience.

 

[Agamon]

There's a Pelgrane article called Dicey Stunts that shows how to do this with 13th Age.

 

[Rune]

I created a game for the 7 Day RPG contest on this site a while back that does this as a core mechanic (no random element at all).

If you're not ready to give up your dice just yet, though, take a look at Dungeon World. There are many instances where players are given a choice of outcomes or may choose actions with the understanding that the outcome of failure may be severe.

 

[1of3]

That's a form of Stake Resolution, explicit stakes, implicit couter-stakes. From what you describe it's similar to The Pool or Primetime Adventures.

 

[Rune]

That's a form of Stake Resolution, explicit stakes, implicit couter-stakes. From what you describe it's similar to The Pool or Primetime Adventures.

Not familiar with either of those, but, yeah.

Except, in my game, the counter-stakes are also explicit.

 

[pemerton]

A few days ago, in a thread I can no longer recall, someone made mention of a technique referred to as bargaining with the players. In essence, the play gets permission to attempt something slightly rule-breaking--on the understanding that, if he fails, the results will be equally rule-breaking, and narratively significant.

Does anyone know where this concept came from, and where I can read about it in more detail?

How big are the stakes you're talking about?

In my 4e game I handle p 42 in the way you describe. Eg in our last session, the fighter had leapt onto the back of the flying white dragon the party was fighting, and on a successful hit knocked it prone (using some power I can't remember now).

I gave him the option of making an Acro check to ride the dragon down, taking half falling damage on a successful check but 1.5x damage if he failed (because in that case the dragon is on top of him). Alternatively, he could fall 5 sq away and just take normal damage. Being a wimp who didn't trust his dice, he opted for the latter - which meant giving up his mark control over the dragon.

Is that the sort of thing you're talking about? Anyway, I think I learned the technique from reading threads and essays on The Forge. (Which fits with [MENTION=48555]1of3[/MENTION] linking the technique to PTA and The Pool, though I personally don't know those games other than by reputation.)

 

[Mouseferatu]

That would be one solid example, but others are viable as well. I.e., just off the top of my head...

• I have this really cool stunt I want to pull, but I don't have quite enough movement to pull it off.
• I want to shoulder-check the death knight into the path of the lightning bolt trap we know is about to go off.
• I want to leap off the back of the House Orien lightning rail, jam this metal spike into the nightmare that's flying after us, and then let the chain attached to the spike fall to dangle in the lightning stones that power the rail, electroucting the nightmare.
• We set up this elaborate maneuver that culminates with the cleric casting a certain spell at a certain time, but the rogue's about to die. The cleric wants to utter a desperate plea to her god and try to break the "can't cast a spell except a cantrip in the same round you cast a spell with a bonus action" rule.
• We have a whole crowd of innocent bystanders here. I want to to throw myself at the incoming Fireball "bead" to trigger it early.

And so forth.

Basically, anything really cool/cinematic that is not possible under the RAW, but not game-breaking.

 

[Dungeoneer]

A few days ago, in a thread I can no longer recall, someone made mention of a technique referred to as bargaining with the players. In essence, the play gets permission to attempt something slightly rule-breaking--on the understanding that, if he fails, the results will be equally rule-breaking, and narratively significant.

Does anyone know where this concept came from, and where I can read about it in more detail?

Pretty sure that it was me that mentioned it and it was the DM Quirks thread where it came up.

I encountered this style no so much through a specific ruleset, but through an actual play podcast where designer Rob Heinsoo is DMing 13th Age. He LOVES bargaining with his players. It is entertaining to listen to. Not sure if it's a style I could ever fully adopt myself.

 

[pemerton]

• I have this really cool stunt I want to pull, but I don't have quite enough movement to pull it off.
• I want to shoulder-check the death knight into the path of the lightning bolt trap we know is about to go off.
• I want to leap off the back of the House Orien lightning rail, jam this metal spike into the nightmare that's flying after us, and then let the chain attached to the spike fall to dangle in the lightning stones that power the rail, electroucting the nightmare.
• We have a whole crowd of innocent bystanders here. I want to to throw myself at the incoming Fireball "bead" to trigger it early.

In my 4e game, those are all in the realm of p 42: Aths or Acro for the movement (fall prone and take damage if fail), forced movement to bump the death knight, an improvised attack with the spike, Acro for the Fireball bead.

Examples I can think of from play are using a flask of wrestling oil to increase forced movement on a stone golem so it would slide into a wall of fire; using Thunderwave to blast a demon through the side of a timber house; using a statue of the Summer Queen to dispel a black dragon's sphere of darkness; etc.

In 4e, it requires an intuitive balancing of action economy and effects. In 5e, I'm not sure how to handle this stuff only because I don't have the same intuitions for action economy, damage and effects.

We set up this elaborate maneuver that culminates with the cleric casting a certain spell at a certain time, but the rogue's about to die. The cleric wants to utter a desperate plea to her god and try to break the "can't cast a spell except a cantrip in the same round you cast a spell with a bonus action" rule.

That one is tricker because it breaks the action economy.

That said, we do that in my game from time to time: when the Vecna got inadvertantly pushed over the side of an earthmote, the paladin went after him "doing a Gandalf" and we allowed a free basic attack.

For the desperate cleric trick in our game, the players would probably try and weave a hp-boosting effect into the ritual (eg use Healing Torch or Battle Cry to power the ritual, with the healing side-effect helping the rogue).

Given all of the above, I doubt I'm as freeform as Rob Heinsoo. (Not that I feel any shame in being a weaker GM than him!)