Basic D&D & granularity?

[scourger]

I recently reacquired the 1981 Moldvay Basic D&D set, and I'm feeling nostalgic. I'm contemplating running The Keep on the Borderlands for my weekly group. But, I'm bothered by the elves. Even if they can't wear armor, which the rules seem to state, the combination of weapons, spells, infravision & detection seems too powerful. Why would a player play a magic-user? If elves can wear armor, too, as the rules also seem to imply, then why play a fighter? Or anything else, for that matter?

One solution I've pondered is removing the elves from the game altogether. I think dwarves & halflings are fun but not overpowered. I've also pondered that the players may really want to play elves--they're all old school and cut their teeth on Basic D&D or 1e AD&D. I want the game to be fun, but I don't think I'll enjoy running the default all-elf game. I would be tempted to make elves the primary targets of all attacks or impose some other kind of equalizers.

I've also considered making it an all-human game, too. Perhaps introducing halflings, then dwarves, then elves lastly (if at all), as PC options. I think it would be fun way to play, but again I don't know how the players would react.

Anyway, any ideas or thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[harmyn]

It depends on how you plan to do experience and how many sessions the game will last. If you hand out XP each time the PCs retreat back to the Keep so they can take a break from the fun bits in the Caves of Chaos the characters will advance on up the chain and several will be 4th level plus by the end of the adventure. So elves will be just fine. They are nice, and they are superior at 1st level to a magic-user, BUT by the time the Elf reaches 2nd level the Magic-User is knocking on his third level.

As for why play a fighter (or a halfling or dwarf) instead of an elf?

Fighters (and halflings) both only need 4000xp to reach 3rd level while the elf needs the same amount just to reach 2nd (dwarves would only be 400xp shy of 3rd level). Elves will always be at least 1 level behind everyone else. Think of it like multi-classing in 1st/2nd edition D&D.

The variable experience charts for each class was the primary balancing factor in the older editions. May sound strange, but it did work to help allow for greater flexibility in character class design and concept (at least in my very humble opinion).

Now if no one is getting any experience until the adventure is completely over and there are no adventures to follow, well then it might make sense to get rid of the Elf class, but it will also be hard to complete the module because some of those baddies assume you have gotten a little tougher (bugbears, minotaurs, potent clerics, and such).

Hope these thoughts give you something to consider.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Oh, come on! Just run it!

I did the same thing and it was tons of fun!

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I'm with BiggusGeekus. Cut loose of all the worries about balancing classes, et cetera, and just run it. Thousands of people ran B2 with the classic rules and had a blast -- I bet your group will, too.

 

[diaglo]

Tens of Thousands of people ran B2 with the classic rules and had a blast -- I bet your group will, too.

fixed it fer ya.

yup, we had a blast and we still are.

the party in the latest campaign just retreated from the Caves of Chaos after losing 2 party members.

 

[WayneLigon]

But, I'm bothered by the elves. Even if they can't wear armor, which the rules seem to state, the combination of weapons, spells, infravision & detection seems too powerful. Why would a player play a magic-user? If elves can wear armor, too, as the rules also seem to imply, then why play a fighter? Or anything else, for that matter?

They can indeed wear armor if I remember correctly. And this is why a lot of early D&D discussions came down to 'why don't elves just rule everything, then?' (Look at Brust's 'Jhereg' series; elves do rule that world...). The variable experience charts balance that out for the most part, and there are a few other things that hinder them.

 

[diaglo]

i'll add a couple more whys to your list:


why ever play a magic user if you only get 1 spell and 1d4 hps at first lvl? why play a thief if you can't wear decent armor and have crappy hps too? why play a cleric if you can't use a sword, axe, spear, or dagger when those are the most likely weapons you will recover off your dead foes and your spell list is so limited?

why not just play a fighting man. they are clearly the best option.


i think your answer lies in choice. some people will choose what they want to play and how to play them. they will weigh their option or not and still choose to play humans, dwarves, and halflings over elves.

 

[diaglo]

my lore on Moldvay elves is a bit shaky since i referee OD&D(1974).

OD&D(1974) elves cannot wear armor and cast. they must choose their class before the session and run in that class for the whole session. they gain experience only in that class. so if they choose thief they run with the same rules as any other thief. if they choose magic user or fighting man likewise. so if they are wearing heavy armor they are not using their magic user class that session they are playing as fighting men.

i know that Moldvay changed that and put the experience all into the race = class thing. so i'm not too sure about the armor rules.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I see you're using the Greyhawk splatbook then, Diaglo.

Why bother, really? You could just stick to the 3 core classes . . .

 

[Estlor]

Yeah, Basic D&D as everyone but Dialgo knows it ( ) has elves as fighter/mage hybrids that can cast in any armor. That makes them very powerful at low levels, but if the party mage makes it through low levels he's going to be tossing around high-level spells while the elf hit his cap (around 5th level, IIRC). Likewise, the fighter is going to have lots more hit points and can probably dish out more damage because he has 36 levels to explore. Eventually that elf that pwned everyone at level one will be relegated to "ranks", unless of course you use the optional 36 level demihuman classes in the back of the rules cyclopedia.

If you've got the Hollow World boxed set you can pick up rules for warrior elves that don't cast. Not really sure why you'd want to play one of them over a straight fighter though. I get the class; it fills a flavor niche (that being the Hollow World has harder to meet Intelligence prerequisites to cast spells).