Basic D&D rides again!

[jrients]

A player needs to know how to make an attack roll, a saving throw and a skill check. He needs to know the basics of combat actions and manuevering. He also needs to know how to use his character's special abilities. The first three fit nicely on a 3x5 index card; the rest need nothing more than some page numbers for easy referencing and either a brief explanation or a brief reading of the cited pages.

Let's assume for a moment that you are correct in your assessment. Do you think the present PHB does an ideal or even good job of explaining that to a player in a vacuum? I think a better job could be done.

A DM needs to know those same basic rules, have a basic familiarity with those special abilities and a similiar familiarity with the combat rules. He can wait for the XP and treasure rules until he needs to deal with them. However, what he needs most is the understanding--one shared by the players--that he is new to the game and as such he ought to take it slow and keep it simple until he gets the basics. This ought not to take more than a session or two, especially if he reads the PHB & DMG as he ought to do.

Do you think the present DMG does a good job of conveying these facts to a novice DM in a vacuum? Could another product do a better job? Again, I think a better job could be done.

I did this over 20 years ago with AD&D1e, when I was younger than that 10 yr. old novice, and today's novice is certainly able to do this with today's superior rules manuals.

I don't think I would have learned the game all by myself starting with AD&D. I probably would have either given up or never bought the core books to begin with. Someone like yourself making this same argument in the 70's would have been arguing against myself and probably many others like me from entering the hobby at all.

Nevermind that we're talking about children playing an adult's game--and D&D is an adult's game, as Dancey make clear back in 2000

Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass about Ryan Dancey's opinion on this one.

All of this means that there is no need for a Basic D&D set anymore; that one is on its way doesn't change that fact.

I disagree.

 

[MerricB]

D&D is an adult game, but that certainly does not preclude children from enjoying it. Chess is an adult game, as well, and I've seen many children playing it!

Certainly they may not understand every concept, but they can understand enough to enjoy it.

A great mistake would be if the game is written in a manner that does not assume a bright, intelligent young adult.

Cheers!

 

[jasamcarl]

Let's assume for a moment that you are correct in your assessment. Do you think the present PHB does an ideal or even good job of explaining that to a player in a vacuum? I think a better job could be done.



Do you think the present DMG does a good job of conveying these facts to a novice DM in a vacuum? Could another product do a better job? Again, I think a better job could be done.



I don't think I would have learned the game all by myself starting with AD&D. I probably would have either given up or never bought the core books to begin with. Someone like yourself making this same argument in the 70's would have been arguing against myself and probably many others like me from entering the hobby at all.



Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass about Ryan Dancey's opinion on this one.



I disagree.

Uh, as someone who got into this hobby with 3.0, it took nothing more than the guidlines on rolling up a character and a night of play to get this game. Everything clicked immediatly (including AoOs). And my gaming background is not that expansive.

 

[MerricB]

Uh, as someone who got into this hobby with 3.0, it took nothing more than the guidlines on rolling up a character and a night of play to get this game. Everything clicked immediatly (including AoOs). And my gaming background is not that expansive.

Were you one of a group of people who had never played a RPG before? So everyone, including the DM, was a complete newbie?

Cheers!

 

[The Sigil]

OK 25 xp if you can list the basic red book magic user and elf spell lists without looking them up.

Gads... it's been so long, I've probably forgotten, but I'll make a stab... here they are in the order they're coming to me...

1st Level
1 - Detect Magic
2 - Read Magic
3 - Magic Missile
4 - Light* (* means reversible, remember?)
5 - Ventriloquism
6 - Floating Disc (spelled with a "c" if memory serves, and not a "k")
(okay, now they're not rolling right out, but they're still coming fairly fast...)
7 - Sleep
8 - Hold Portal
9 - Detect Evil
(things are coming slower now... I'm having to reach way back to pull them out now...)
10 - Protection From Evil
11 - Shield
(that's 11 - blast, I'm one short... think... think... think...)
12 - Shocking Grasp, if memory serves... I think that was the "other" direct damage spell (to go with Magic Missile).

2nd Level
(these are pouring out fast)
1 - Knock
2 - Web
3 - Wizard Lock
4 - Continual Light*
5 - ESP (I think it gets a * in the Expert Set, could be wrong)
(slowed for a second, then once I hit the next one, the started pouring out again)
6 - Invisibility
7 - Detect Invisibility (or was it "See Invisibility" - can't recall now)
8 - Levitate
9 - Locate Object (gets a * in the Companion set, if memory serves)
10 - Mirror Image
11 - Phantasmal Force
(come on, one more... THINK, man! Hold Person is 3rd level... mmrmff...)
12 - Protection from Evil, 10' radius? I think that's right... I think it's 2nd, not 3rd level...

3rd Level (in the DM's book)
Fireball
Lightning Bolt
Dispel Magic
Possibly Hold Person, not sure. I think they mention "Remove Curse" as a 3rd level cleric spell/4th level magic-user spell in the "Cursed Items" section of Magic Items, but I could be wrong.

How'd I do?

--The Sigil

 

[The Sigil]

Gads... it's been so long, I've probably forgotten, but I'll make a stab... here they are in the order they're coming to me...

1st Level
1 - Detect Magic
2 - Read Magic
3 - Magic Missile
4 - Light* (* means reversible, remember?)
5 - Ventriloquism
6 - Floating Disc (spelled with a "c" if memory serves, and not a "k")
(okay, now they're not rolling right out, but they're still coming fairly fast...)
7 - Sleep
8 - Hold Portal
9 - Detect Evil
(things are coming slower now... I'm having to reach way back to pull them out now...)
10 - Protection From Evil
11 - Shield
(that's 11 - blast, I'm one short... think... think... think...)
12 - Shocking Grasp, if memory serves... I think that was the "other" direct damage spell (to go with Magic Missile).

2nd Level
(these are pouring out fast)
1 - Knock
2 - Web
3 - Wizard Lock
4 - Continual Light*
5 - ESP (I think it gets a * in the Expert Set, could be wrong)
(slowed for a second, then once I hit the next one, the started pouring out again)
6 - Invisibility
7 - Detect Invisibility (or was it "See Invisibility" - can't recall now)
8 - Levitate
9 - Locate Object (gets a * in the Companion set, if memory serves)
10 - Mirror Image
11 - Phantasmal Force
(come on, one more... THINK, man! Hold Person is 3rd level... mmrmff...)
12 - Protection from Evil, 10' radius? I think that's right... I think it's 2nd, not 3rd level...

3rd Level (in the DM's book)
Fireball
Lightning Bolt
Dispel Magic
Possibly Hold Person, not sure. I think they mention "Remove Curse" as a 3rd level cleric spell/4th level magic-user spell in the "Cursed Items" section of Magic Items, but I could be wrong.

How'd I do?

--The Sigil

*whips out PDF version of Basic Set to check himself*
D'oh! So close!

Level 1:
Charm Person
Detect Magic
Floating Disc
Hold Portal
Light
Magic Missile
Protection from Evil
Read Languages - how did I forget that one?
Read Magic
Shield
Sleep
Ventriloquism

Level 2:
Continual Light
Detect Evil - *grumbles* I had it as a 1st level spell
Detect Invisible
ESP
Invisibility
Knock
Levitate
Locate Object
Mirror Image
Phantasmal Force
Web
Wizard Lock

(Prot. from Evil - 10' radius must be a 3rd-level spell)

Level 3: (In DM's Book)
Dispel Magic
Fireball
Fly

(No Hold Person, no Lightning Bolt. Oh well)

Only a high level NPC magic-user or cleric can help a character be rid of the curse.

I guess no specific mention of Remove Curse, either.

--The Sigil

 

[MerricB]

I guess no specific mention of Remove Curse, either.

Not bad!

Clerical spells:

1st:
Cure Light Wounds
Detect Evil
Detect Magic
Light
Protection from Evil
Purify Food and Water
Remove Fear
Resist Cold

2nd:
Bless
Hold Person
Silence 15' Radius

(from Moldvay)

Cheers!

 

[mmadsen]

It's not complex. That is an illusion.

An illusion rendered potent by pages, and pages, and pages of options.

A player needs to know how to make an attack roll, a saving throw and a skill check. He needs to know the basics of combat actions and manuevering. He also needs to know how to use his character's special abilities. The first three fit nicely on a 3x5 index card; the rest need nothing more than some page numbers for easy referencing and either a brief explanation or a brief reading of the cited pages.

You've made the case for a basic set that presents just that information in an easy-to-digest format.

Nevermind that we're talking about children playing an adult's game--and D&D is an adult's game, as Dancey make clear back in 2000--so the fact that a child plays at all is a good thing.

D&D is a game that is played by more adults than children, and that is marketed more toward adults than children, and that has rules written more for devoted adult hobbiests than for curious children, but I don't see how that argues against an accessibly written ruleset.

What is the downside to having a product with streamlined options (e.g., four classes, four races, low-level spells) and lots of examples that they can sell for less than $90 retail?

 

[MerricB]

What is the downside to having a product with streamlined options (e.g., four classes, four races, low-level spells) and lots of examples that they can sell for less than $90 retail?

Only as regards if it can make a profit - or be amortised into the main D&D sales figures, as a good introductory product.

Cheers!

 

[Jody Butt]

Don't hold back, Ranes. Tell us what you really think.

But seriously, some of us didn't come to 3e "through" OD&D/Basic/whatever. You make it sound like we all grew up and now of course play 3e in preference to other versions. Some of us think that OD&D is still just as valid a way to play as the crunch-crunch-crunch so in vogue right now. Otherwise Troll Lords would not be working on C&C. Otherwise D&D Rules Cyclopedia would be collecting dust in bargin bins.

And D&D is a less accessible game then it was when I got started. I was a 10-year-old kid with the '81 Basic Set who didn't know anyone who could teach him how to play. I spent a whole summer trying to absorb Tom Moldvay's masterful version of D&D before I even ran a game. How long would that have taken with three core books each several times longer than the basic rules? Would I have even tried? Would I have shelled out the extra money?

The hobby needs more Basic sets of all sorts, in my opinion.

I agree. Simpler is better. I don't have time for an RPG with a 1000 pages of core rules.

I want simplicity. Give it all to me in 100 pages or less.

Give it to me WITHOUT dungeonpunk artwork!

. . . and for the LOVE OF PETE, NO MINIATURES OR GRIDS!