Battlerager....Overpowered?

[Lord Zardoz]

The Invigorating keyword definition in Martial Power has one very important sentence in in it.

No invigorating power grants temporary hit points more than once per turn, even if you hit more than once with the power or use more than one power with the invigorating keyword in a round.

It can only function as defacto damage reduction if your up against a single opponent. If your swarmed and hit more than once, you will still end up losing hp. You will end up much more durable than you otherwise might, but it is still going to suck to get hit a whole lot.

Still, this will make you much hardier in general, and more durable against minions in particular.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Stalker0]

From my end, I don't even care about the fact it stacks with invigorating, or the +X damage in certain armors.

Let's look at a standard scale armored fighter with no invigorating powers. Even then, the amount of temp hp you get is a very powerful ability.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

From my end, I don't even care about the fact it stacks with invigorating, or the +X damage in certain armors.

Let's look at a standard scale armored fighter with no invigorating powers. Even then, the amount of temp hp you get is a very powerful ability.

I don't get your point.

What amount of temp hp are you getting if you are a fighter with no invigorating powers? The same as anybody else?

It can only function as defacto damage reduction if your up against a single opponent. If your swarmed and hit more than once, you will still end up losing hp. You will end up much more durable than you otherwise might, but it is still going to suck to get hit a whole lot.

It never functions as defacto damage reduction, even against a single enemy. You won't hit every round and you won't use invigorating powers every round either. In your example of being swarmed by minions, for example, you would use cleave or some effect that target many opponents, not an invigorating attack (they all target only one opponent, at least for the 10 first level)

 

[Hamilburg]

First of all, figters get hit. A lot. Marking monsters to encourage them to target you does that. So you don't get to stack those HP all that often since every round you get hit resets the counter to zero. A non-battlerager fighter who uses invigorating powers will get about 80% as much out of them as a battlerager. The only way you can stack crazy HP is if you aren't getting hit for several consecutive round, keep using Invigorating Powers even when better options are available and hit most of the time. But if you aren't getting hit, what do you need the HP for?

Note that using a chainmail and losing the +1 to hit tend to make the HP stacking harder in the first place since you'll get hit more and hit less.

Secondly, invigorating powers aren't always the best option, even if you factor in the temp HP. What fighter faced by two monsters, including one minion, would rather use Crushing Surge than Cleave? And are you seriously going to select only dailies and encounter powers with the Invogorating power? 'Cause many of them aren't very good. I'm never selecting Pinning Smash over ain of Steel, for example. So even a battle rager won't use invigorating powers every round.

Also, most invigorating powers are better with axes and hammers. If you take those, you are 2 points behind my bastard sword fighter. But if you don't, many of these invigorating powers are seriously subpar...

Just because they have bonuses with chainmail doesn't make it the best option. Take your bastard sword fighter and just replace weapon talent with Battlerager Vigor. Even without a single invigorating power, you've got the same AC, and are getting 2+ (with a measly con of 14) temp HP every time you are hit. Sure they go fast, but given that the weapon talent fighter is taking exactly the same damage without that buffer (which adds up VERY quickly)

How many times is your fighter hit in an average combat by close or melee attacks? 3? 4? 5? Even with a con of only 14 that gives you 8-10 extra HP, about the same as your surge value at low level. You just got a second wind's amount of extra durability without spending an action or a healing surge... every single combat. For a fighter that is about anything other than trying to maximize their own damage output, it feels like you'd be stupid NOT to go battlerager. Con higher than 14? It gets even worse, *fast*.

 

[Baumi]

I don't get your point.
What amount of temp hp are you getting if you are a fighter with no invigorating powers? The same as anybody else?

The Battleragers get his CON as temp Hitpoints after getting hit.

I know that if I would create my Dragonborn Sword'n Boarder again, I would definitively use the Battlerager over the Weapon Talent, even though I would use Scale and therefore not gain the offensive advantages. Ignoring damage per attack (after the first) is awesome for any defender.

 

[Bagpuss]

Am I correct in thinking the Battlerager gets his temp hit points after getting hit but before damage is applied, so that it is effectively DR = Con mod against each melee or close attack that hits? Or does "attack resolved" mean both attack and damage part?

If he manages to hit some one with his Crushing Surge, prior to them attacking his temp hit points would be DR = Con x2. Then reduced by whatever damaged they caused.

What happens if he manages to smack three opponents with his Crushing Surge, before being hit himself. His Temp hit points would be Con mod x 3 correct?

 

[Baumi]

Am I correct in thinking the Battlerager gets his temp hit points after getting hit but before damage is applied, so that it is effectively DR = Con mod against each melee or close attack that hits? Or does "attack resolved" mean both attack and damage part?

The attack resolved includes the damage. So the first hit gets through but build up some rage against upcoming attacks ("smelling blood").

If he manages to hit some one with his Crushing Surge, prior to them attacking his temp hit points would be DR = Con x2. Then reduced by whatever damaged they caused.

I don't understand the question. If he get's damaged than it is subtracted form the TempHP first. If he managed to hit with Crushing Surge first and got hit once to activate the Battlerager HP's then his TempHP would be CONx2.

What happens if he manages to smack three opponents with his Crushing Surge, before being hit himself. His Temp hit points would be Con mod x 3 correct?

I would have said no, but after reading it again he would certainly stack those of his Crushing Surge attack to all TempHP he already has, regardless where he got it. But you are still limited to one Invigoration Power per Round.

 

[Bagpuss]

I would have said no, but after reading it again he would certainly stack those of his Crushing Surge attack to all TempHP he already has, regardless where he got it. But you are still limited to one Invigoration Power per Round.

Right so theoretically if he doesn't get hit himself, and each round hits with an Invigorating power, there is no upper limit to the amount of Temp Hit Points he can have.

 

[Baumi]

Right so theoretically if he doesn't get hit himself, and each round hits with an Invigorating power, there is no upper limit to the amount of Temp Hit Points he can have.

Yes, but I don't think that's a problem since this will never happen and if he was really missed (or not attacked) the whole combat then his tempHP are useless anyway

The bigger problem is his automatical tempHP when he got hit. One of my (lvl5 fighter) most powerful Exploit is Boundless Endurance that lets me once per day regenerate 2+Con each round when I am bloodied. While the tempHP he would get is 2 lower, it has no limitation: it works in every combat, all the time (bloodied or not) and unlimited times per round...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I am still wondering about this. I don't have the MP yet myself, but I saw a Dwarven Battlerager in action last friday. Together with my Fighter/Wizard, we ruled the battlefield.

And we barely needed any healing, especially not the Battlerager.

We were playing 15th level character, and the Battlerager apparently got 11 temporary hit points per hit, at least according to the players description. (Part of it thanks to some feats he took?)

The problem is - I don't know the mechanics behind it, and I keep wondering if he or we did something wrong (that player is particularly prone to mis-reading the fine print of mechanics, sometimes to his benefit, sometimes to his drawback.).

So, tell me, can you get 11 temporary hit points per enemy attack at 15th level? Wouldn't this fully negate Minions? Where we missing something? Is the power just overpowered?