Battlerager....Overpowered?

[Ibixat]

Right so theoretically if he doesn't get hit himself, and each round hits with an Invigorating power, there is no upper limit to the amount of Temp Hit Points he can have.

Yes, if the defender is fighting people with his melee range invigorating powers and never being hit in return, yes, he can have unlimited temps, and the DM is eligible for a brain transplant for never attacking the fighter or putting them up against critters that can't hit him at all.

 

[Plane Sailing]

How so? Is there a power combination you see that causes this, or just a feeling?
...

With feats you could get Con + 5 with your invigorating powers, but that doesn't seem like "stupid hp-land." Is there a combo I'm missing?

I like simple. I think that temp hp work best if they never stack (rather than having some stack and some don't). If some of them stack you leave a door open for the law on unintended consequences.

Since the battlerager gets temp hp on a regular basis (similarly invigorating powers) having them not stack means that it is like having a small amount of DR most of the time. When the possibility for stacking exists, it raises the possibility of getting large amounts of temp hp stacking up and ending up invulnerable to one or two attacks.

That's my reasoning. I've not read all through martial power yet to see whether there are any directly abusive combinations in this respect. But I like less confusion in the implementation of benefits like temp hp (and a fully-nonstacking approach hasn't made it any less useful for the infernal warlock in my campaign, who derives great benefit from his temp hp powers and curse benefit).

Cheers

 

[Plane Sailing]

Next time you visit, I'll make you play one and we'll see.

But I wanna be a rogue! Or a ranger!

 

[Ibixat]

I like simple. I think that temp hp work best if they never stack (rather than having some stack and some don't). If some of them stack you leave a door open for the law on unintended consequences.

Since the battlerager gets temp hp on a regular basis (similarly invigorating powers) having them not stack means that it is like having a small amount of DR most of the time. When the possibility for stacking exists, it raises the possibility of getting large amounts of temp hp stacking up and ending up invulnerable to one or two attacks.

That's my reasoning. I've not read all through martial power yet to see whether there are any directly abusive combinations in this respect. But I like less confusion in the implementation of benefits like temp hp (and a fully-nonstacking approach hasn't made it any less useful for the infernal warlock in my campaign, who derives great benefit from his temp hp powers and curse benefit).

Cheers

At the end of a fighters first turn of combat the maximum number of temp hp he could have stacked would be 2xcon mod, through a feat you can boost it to by +1 per con at heroic to +3 per con at epic, and dragonborn can boost it by +2 if bloodied per con. Assuming they are not hit for more than whatever they gained from the invigorating power con, or con+1 or maybe con+3 they could hit again with an invigorating power and start to raise the total, but most hits you take will be greater than that amount of damage and ding into real hp. And the HP from being hit do not stack only the ones from hitting with an invigorating power add on.. Artificers giving you those 20 temps from that one skill would be able to be stacked onto though.

I think the reparation aparatus breaks the way they work though. Given that your powers would grant you con+2d6.... That may need to be errata'd =)

 

[Mengu]

Battlerager is a bit overpowered I think in combination with some races that are already on the upper end of the power spectrum.

A Dragonborn Fighter already gains some serious bonuses from having a high constitution. A dragonborn who can generate temporary hitpoints can stay bloodied most of a combat and feel relatively safe from being taken down thanks to the constant influx of temporary hitpoints. Combine this with the higher healing surge values and a Belt of Vigor, and you have an extremely durable character.

A Warforged Battlerager with 18 Strength and Constitution is again going to be at the high end of the power curve. With a selection of powers like Comeback Strike, Boundless Endurance, and Victorious Surge, feats like Improved Warforged Resolve, Toughness and Durable, and a Paragon path like Iron Vanguard, the durability resources will be extremely abundant.

 

[Bagpuss]

Other things to consider is not only is the Fighter losing the +1 to attack from the change in class feature, most (all?) invigorating powers benefit from using a axe, mace or hammer, which is only +2 proficiency bonus, so a Battlerager is going to be much less effective at attacking.

 

[James McMurray]

So, tell me, can you get 11 temporary hit points per enemy attack at 15th level? Wouldn't this fully negate Minions? Where we missing something? Is the power just overpowered?

The base ability gives you your con mod in temp hp. There is a dwarf-only feat that adds 1/2 your con mod to that. There is a paragon feat that adds 2 more to that. So if he has a 22 con he'll get 6 (base) + 3 (1/2 con) + 2 (feat).

It doesn't negate minions, it just assures that they'll go after juicier targets, making the defender's job harder. A defender that can't be hurt is a defender who gets ignored, and hence not a defender at all.

 

[Nail]

A defender that can't be hurt is a defender who gets ignored, and hence not a defender at all.

Yup.

...and it's a difficult concept to really embrace as a front-line fighter. "Wait...I want lower defences than my comrades?"

 

[Kraydak]

It doesn't negate minions, it just assures that they'll go after juicier targets, making the defender's job harder. A defender that can't be hurt is a defender who gets ignored, and hence not a defender at all.

It doesn't work that way. Keeping all else constant, boosting the defender's defenses makes attacking the non-defenders more attractive in a relative sense, but it does not make it more attractive in an absolute sense.

The goal, all else constant, is to get the defender's defenses high enough that attacking the defender and attacking other people is equally attractive. Boosting the defender's defenses higher that that changes nothing: the opponents just attack the non-defenders at the same return/action as before. Dropping the defender's defenses below that point just means that the defender gets attacked, at a better return/action for the opponent.

In most RPGs, you have to trade off other abilities to boost your defenses, so the situation is a little different in practice (and the break-even point will be lower, defense-wise), but worrying that increasing your defenses (again, all else kept equal) will decrease your utility as a defender is absurd. In this case, high-con hammer wielders already were top-line damage dealers (thank you, Hammer Rhythm), so there isn't much of a trade-off...

 

[Plane Sailing]

Other things to consider is not only is the Fighter losing the +1 to attack from the change in class feature, most (all?) invigorating powers benefit from using a axe, mace or hammer, which is only +2 proficiency bonus, so a Battlerager is going to be much less effective at attacking.

The human fighter in my campaign uses 2H Maul with his 13 Str and 19 Con. He would probably be delighted with any of these new powers.