Battlerager Vigor - Overpowered?

[Starfox]

I'm looking at a battlerager vigor, and I'm thinking about how hard our sword-and-board fighter had to work to just stay alive. And I try to think how much more staying power the battlerager has - even if nothing else was changed in the build. And I wonder - who would ever play a regular 1-handed sword-and-board these days?

I've not gone into any depth in this analysis, but I'm sure there are people around here who'd love to do so. I followed some thread over at the WotC forums, but they drowned in hype from both sides of the argument.

Edit. I just saw a link to an old thread on this subject here, but it's died. Maybe someone can sum it up? Seems I missed it.

 

[Mort_Q]

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/245588-battlerager-overpowered.html

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...icial-ruling-battlerager-vigor-mechanics.html

 

[ki11erDM]

My personal sum is that it is clearly better, even if the fighter was in scale mail using a shield and dagger.

I see people calming that the THPs are not that big of a deal but I could not disagree more.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

It is the sort of thing that will be impacted a great deal by what your DM likes to throw at you. If he uses heavy hitters or things that inflict ongoing damage or other conditions, it may not help too much. But if your swarmed by lots of opponents, it can work out pretty damn good for you.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[ki11erDM]

It is the sort of thing that will be impacted a great deal by what your DM likes to throw at you. If he uses heavy hitters or things that inflict ongoing damage or other conditions, it may not help too much. But if your swarmed by lots of opponents, it can work out pretty damn good for you.

END COMMUNICATION

But you just described the difference between 3.x and 4e. You are supposed to fight lots of creatures... and maybe that is why I think it is so good.

My sword and board fighter has been using the +1 lifedrinker from the DMG adventure for... 5 level or so and it has been such a huge boon to him, I just can’t see how in the world a +1 to hit is as good as the THPs.

I would really like to see a good argument as to why the THPs are not as good as the +1 because I am trying to find some reason to justify not taking this path...

 

[Doctor Proctor]

If your CON was a 12 or 14, and you were pumping STR and WIS as your stats to go Pit Fighter, then what is BV really getting you? 1 or 2 THP when you're hit by a melee or close attack? Versus a permanent +1 to attacks? Unless you're building for high CON anyway, there's plenty of reason to take the Weapon Talent feature. Epsecially if you're also using a non-sword weapon that only has a +2 proficiency bonus, or starting with a 16 STR.

 

[Stalker0]

If your CON was a 12 or 14, and you were pumping STR and WIS as your stats to go Pit Fighter, then what is BV really getting you? 1 or 2 THP when you're hit by a melee or close attack? Versus a permanent +1 to attacks? Unless you're building for high CON anyway, there's plenty of reason to take the Weapon Talent feature. Epsecially if you're also using a non-sword weapon that only has a +2 proficiency bonus, or starting with a 16 STR.

I don't think anyone is saying that battlerager is the only way to go, but a 16 con fighter is a mainstay fighter, and at that point the battlerager is a lot better than the +1.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

I don't think anyone is saying that battlerager is the only way to go, but a 16 con fighter is a mainstay fighter, and at that point the battlerager is a lot better than the +1.

I realize that. He asked for a good reason to take the +1 over the THP. Having a low CON because you're working on Pit Fighter/Marked Scourge (which only activate when you hit someone) is a good reason to take the +1 over 1 or 2 temp hp. The same would apply to a high DEX Fighter going for Heavy Blades/HBO and such.

 

[ki11erDM]

I realize that. He asked for a good reason to take the +1 over the THP. Having a low CON because you're working on Pit Fighter/Marked Scourge (which only activate when you hit someone) is a good reason to take the +1 over 1 or 2 temp hp. The same would apply to a high DEX Fighter going for Heavy Blades/HBO and such.

I'll take that as a reason, but I don't think it is a good one. A friend of mine pointed out that this is probably just WotC way of 'fixing' fighters.

 

[Starfox]

A friend of mine pointed out that this is probably just WotC way of 'fixing' fighters.

That's what I was afrad of. And I can see how the basic 1h/2h fighter needs "fixing" - but I don't consider this highly complex and probably overpowered thing a fix.


Wouldn't a simple AC bonus have worked? Or course, that would put us closer to "monster needs 20 to hit" land of 3E.