D&D General BBEGs shouldn't miss.

[zarionofarabel]

Well, for me anyway, having a DM fudge dice rolls means I have lost all agency as a player. If the DM is just deciding what happens that means there is no reason for me as a player to be at the table as the choices I make as to what my character is doing are meaningless.

 

[NotAYakk]

The dm doesn’t have to explain himself. If a person finds out they are not having a good time at his table they can leave. But the dm is under no obligation to tell anyone what he does behind the screen.

If the DM or other players are not having a good time at that player's table, they can leave. The player is under no obligation to tell anyone what mechanics their PC uses.

...

Right? That is what you are saying?



...

The weirdness people have over "hierarchy" always amuses me. A is above B in status, so A's will is all that matters. B's job is to be subservient.

Sometimes dressed up in "they are win a willing relationship where A dominates B, who is anyone else to say that domination is wrong?!"

Repeated over and over again. And treated like "of course, that is how it works, it would be madness otherwise!"

 

[Olrox17]

Hiya!


It's not that "every single fight, trap and hazard IS a life or death affair...", its that "every single fight, trap and hazard is a POTENTIAL life or death affair".

For example, lets say a 5th level PC with core stuff (no feats, no unusual race/class, no multiclass, etc) is in a forest. The PC has medicine for a sick town elder on the other side of this forest. This forest takes a day to go through, going around it takes 4 days. Thing is, the forest is known to be the stomping ground of a rather nasty Manticore. The Player decides to save time and head through the Manticore Woods as time is of the essence. Now, the DM can handle this two ways (at least).

Way Number One: The DM has the Manticore's stats...and it's bumped up a bit (near max HP's, missing an eye so -3 to hit with it's tail spikes, but it's old and bigger, so damage is +5 with the spikes; you know, a 'unique and tough' old veteran monster). The PC takes a wrong turn and ends up falling down a small cliff of 30' and takes 15 points of damage. Later that day, the PC just happens to have taken the 'easiest looking route'...looks like a large game trail. Of course this trail is frequently hunted by the Manticore, old Blackspike! The DM's notes say that once per hour of traveling 'in the open', gives a 1 in 12 chance that Blackspike find them.

Way Number Two: Same thing, but the DM pre-emptively decides "he won't encounter Blackspike, I'll just make it a black bear if Blackspike is rolled to show up".

Now, the problem is that with number 2, the DM has decided specifically to NOT go with consistency. This sets up the Player expectation that "The DM won't throw stuff at us that can kill us...at least not a 'random encounter'". HOWEVER, if we look at number 1, and the DM rolls a Blackspike encounter, and keeps it as rolled...and the PC dies. Well, that sets up the Player expectation that "The DM isn't going to save me...that's on me".

So the potential to meet up with a deadly foe was completely up to the Player. He could/should have known "If I go through the woods, alone, Blackspike will kill me if I encounter him. No way can I fight him alone. Hmmm.... Nope. Not worth the risk. I'll take the long way" ...OR... the player can decide "If I go through the woods, along, Blackspike will kill me if I encounter him. No way can I fight him alone. Hmmmm... I'll have to risk it. The elder doesn't have the time". In the Players mind... HE has made the decision and has to live with the consequences.

This ties into the BBEG expectations. In a campaign with death being a possibility "at any moment" (re: the DM isn't going to 'lessen' encounters or build them specifically towards the PC's strengths/weaknesses), when it comes time for a BBEG, the expectation is "This is the climactic battle! It's very likely that some of us die...hopefully we win and save the Princess". This is a far superior (IMNSHO) situation to have than "Oh, it's the BBEG. It's gonna be tough...be we'll probably win...and those of us that die will probably get Raised somehow after".

In the former case...a 6 round combat with the BBEG is NOT a problem...it's a goal!

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Ok, that clarifies it for me. In fact, our DMing styles might be closer than I anticipated.

You assume negative connotation where there is none.

Fair enough. Be aware, however, that the exact examples you provided are often used to discredit different gaming styles out of hand, so a negative connotation might be automatically assumed.

I can get those results without fudging dice by cooking the stats going in. Blaming fudging dice isn’t a solution if that’s my attitude.

A far better way to allow a recurring villain escape is to compensate the players for it. Giving out hero points in Mutants and Masterminds is a pretty good method. An equivalent in 5e might be giving everyone inspiration for every DM-fiat recurring villain escape from doom.

A good example of that in 5e is Legendary Resistance, if we think about it.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Well, for me anyway, having a DM fudge dice rolls means I have lost all agency as a player. If the DM is just deciding what happens that means there is no reason for me as a player to be at the table as the choices I make as to what my character is doing are meaningless.

Pretty much...which is why when I roll something that I really don't want to have happen, I tell the Players...

DM (Me): "Hmmm...wow. Er... Ancient Red dragon. That was...unexpected. Like, 1 in several hundred chance, but you ARE in the Hellfunaces"
Players: "[ expletive utterance]"!
DM: "How about I re-roll that?..."
Players: "Yeah. Yeah...I think that would be nice. I don't want to roll up a new PC, thanks"


So I guess you could call this "fudging with permission". That I have no problem at all with. After all, RPG's are a group activity, right?

EDIT: And just for clarification, I would say 8/10 times my players would say "Nope. Keep what you roll. Lets do this!". They usually die, or several of them, but sometimes they win. Let me tell you, in those sessions, the excitement level is somewhere near lunar orbit! For example, 5 PC's, in a swamp, PC's all level 1 to 3. Encounter a 5 headed Hydra (CR 8 I believe). They stuck with the roll. Battle ensued. After some good tactics, LUCKY rolls, ample use of terrain and flasks of oil and Flame Dart, and some absolutely HEROIC poo from the Goliath Barbarian... a dead hydra. Beat up PC's, almost dead, equipment messed up, out of spells, but H E Double-Hockey-Sticks if'n that wasn't an EPIC battle! Oh, and yes, it was a "random encounter", fyi. If I had 'fudged' the dice and made it something lesser, well, we wouldn't have had that epic, memorable battle. That is where RPG's and the randomness of dice REALLY shine. Shame to remove that under the excuse of "fuding the dice to be fair".

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Hiya!

Pretty much...which is why when I roll something that I really don't want to have happen, I tell the Players...

DM (Me): "Hmmm...wow. Er... Ancient Red dragon. That was...unexpected. Like, 1 in several hundred chance, but you ARE in the Hellfunaces"
Players: "[ expletive utterance]"!
DM: "How about I re-roll that?..."
Players: "Yeah. Yeah...I think that would be nice. I don't want to roll up a new PC, thanks"


So I guess you could call this "fudging with permission". That I have no problem at all with. After all, RPG's are a group activity, right?

^_^

Paul L. Ming

I would hate this so much.

Well, maybe not with random encounter tables, but if the GM would do this on attack rolls or such.

 

[zarionofarabel]

Fair enough. Be aware, however, that the exact examples you provided are often used to discredit different gaming styles out of hand, so a negative connotation might be automatically assumed.

Well, you know what they say about people assuming things...

 

[Charlaquin]

Hiya!

Pretty much...which is why when I roll something that I really don't want to have happen, I tell the Players...

DM (Me): "Hmmm...wow. Er... Ancient Red dragon. That was...unexpected. Like, 1 in several hundred chance, but you ARE in the Hellfunaces"
Players: "[ expletive utterance]"!
DM: "How about I re-roll that?..."
Players: "Yeah. Yeah...I think that would be nice. I don't want to roll up a new PC, thanks"


So I guess you could call this "fudging with permission". That I have no problem at all with. After all, RPG's are a group activity, right?

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Yeah, I would have no problem with that as a player. Although as a DM, I probably wouldn’t include that ancient red dragon on the random encounter table if I wasn’t prepared to pit my players against it.

 

[Olrox17]

Well, you know what they say about people assuming things...

Actually, no. I'm not a native english speaker, I know the language, but some common expressions and pop culture references are lost on me sometimes.

And about the random red ancient dragon thing, it once happened in my game, and it turned into one of the most memorable sessions we ever had! The party working together to evade an impossibly powerful dragon while traversing a canyon and occasionally fighting small groups of lower-power critters. Great session! One of my players even celebrated it with a fake photoshopped movie poster.
Edit: I still have that, here it is

 

[dave2008]

You assume negative connotation where there is none.

Perhaps you are unaware, but the term "videogamey" has been used as a derogatory term on these and other forums for many years (very strong during the 4e days, but it predates that). So while you may not have intended a negative connotation, it is associated regardless. It is not simply an assumption by Olrox 17.

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah, I would have no problem with that as a player. Although as a DM, I probably wouldn’t include that ancient red dragon on the random encounter table if I wasn’t prepared to pit my players against it.

Another option is to have a vague plan in mind that if the dragon does randomly come up, for whatever reason it's not coming in hot and thus the PCs have a chance to talk or bribe their way out of the situation.

Then the choice is on the players/PCs as to whether they wanna fight the thing, as are the consequences if-when they do.