beavers the size of bears

[d4]

Andrewsarchus isn't ancestral to whales per se; it's related to whale ancestors. We think.

that's cool. i was just going by what the book says, but it was published in 1996, so it may not be completely up to date.

And what's a carnivorous kangaroo; a Tylacoleo? I've having trouble with that one. And "vampire cats" too.

Thylacoleo carnifex is the "executioner marsupial lion" i mentioned. the carnivorous kangaroo is a Propleopus that resembled a normal 5-6 foot kangaroo except for its teeth --
"stabbing incisors, slicing premolars, and bone-snapping molars." it probably ate small birds, lizards, and other marsupials.

the "vampire cat" or Vampirictys vipera was sort of a sabre-tooth cat, leopard-sized, but with "stiletto-like fangs and razor-sharp slicing molars." supposed to be related to the "terror cat" -- Nimravus dinictis.

 

[Ravellion]

Ravellion -- yeah, none of the cats have ever really been bigger than a Siberian tiger, really. Some have been about as big, or lion sized at least (which is still pretty frikkin big, really) but this myth that ancient mammals were all humongous really is that, a myth. Although there really was a giant "beaver" during the interglacials of North America.

Well, from what I remember, one strand of sabretooth tiger (it is an evolutionary concept that crops up now and then) evolved from the sabretooth cat I mentioned.

Picture a Sabretooth tiger. Take its teeth, put them on your cute little house cat (a big one, not a Siamese, say a Maine Coone). That's what I meant. must have looked ridiculous. must have been painful though, apparently they jumped straight fo the jugular, and had a meal for a long time. (edit: I remember it being proportianally the smallest predator in comparison to its prey ever as far as we know).

Basically the tiger evolved around the teeth, instead of the tiger growing bigger and bigger teeth as it evolved.

Rav

 

[JacktheRabbit]

My favorite is the giant ground sloth. They stood over 12 feet tall and were powerful enough to kill saber tooth cats with single blows from their 10" claws.

Oh and they had a layer of small bones under their skin that functioned like chainmail.

 

[Desdichado]

Thylacoleo carnifex is the "executioner marsupial lion" i mentioned. the carnivorous kangaroo is a Propleopus that resembled a normal 5-6 foot kangaroo except for its teeth --
"stabbing incisors, slicing premolars, and bone-snapping molars." it probably ate small birds, lizards, and other marsupials.

the "vampire cat" or Vampirictys vipera was sort of a sabre-tooth cat, leopard-sized, but with "stiletto-like fangs and razor-sharp slicing molars." supposed to be related to the "terror cat" -- Nimravus dinictis.

Oh, yeah, I've heard of Proleopus. The Vampirictys is a new one to me, though -- I've never heard of that one. Of course all the nimravids are fairly obscure, with the possible exception of Barbourofelis fricki. To me, the most fascinating thing about the nimravids is that they aren't cats. Oddly enough, if you were to see one today, you might think it looks more catlike than some true cats, but cladists really struggle to place them. They've been placed as a sister group to cats, a completely seperate aeluroid branch, or even a basal carnivora branch that evolved completely outside the aeluroid/arctoid split. And we haven't the foggiest idea which is right!

Shard -- I'm actually a buyer for mirrors, luggage racks and door handles for an automotive OEM -- but paleontology has been one of my hobbies since I was about 4 years old. Unlike most kids who like dinosaurs and mammoths and whatnot and kinda grow out of it, I kept on going with them until I could read the technical papers in Nature. One of my nerdy pastimes, I admit.

 

[Nellisir]

Snapple real fact #123 beavers were once the size of bears.
Besides the point I suppose but anyone else know of any cool trivia which would turn an ordinary creature into a cool monster in a savage land like scenario?

Was it MM2 that had giant beavers? It was pretty straightforward, except for the human level intelligence. That might wig out a few players.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[Dr. NRG]

OMG. Does everyone in this thread lack the juvenile sense of humor that most gamers so frequently share?

Bear beavers and not even a single play on words?

I can barely bear to berate...

NRG

 

[Desdichado]

Picture a Sabretooth tiger. Take its teeth, put them on your cute little house cat (a big one, not a Siamese, say a Maine Coone). That's what I meant. must have looked ridiculous. must have been painful though, apparently they jumped straight fo the jugular, and had a meal for a long time. (edit: I remember it being proportianally the smallest predator in comparison to its prey ever as far as we know).

Basically the tiger evolved around the teeth, instead of the tiger growing bigger and bigger teeth as it evolved.

I'd like to find out more about that. In general, the myth of jumping and stabbing sabre-tooths is also most definately a myth. The teeth were relatively slim and dagger-like, but also potentially very fragile. Most sabre-tooth morphologies also featured very powerful shoulders, necks and forelegs, from the nimravids, to the sabretooth cats, to the sabertooth marsupials to the sabertooth creodonts. In general, it's supposed they held their prey down very still and gave a very precise killing bite. Anything else would potentially break the teeth and the creature would starve to death.

 

[Pickaxe]

more intimidating is the Andrewsarchus, the largest land mammalian predator. clocking in at "19 feet long, and standing 8 feet tall at the shoulder. its skull alone is 3 feet long and 2 feet wide... its teeth are very large and sharp... it seems to have been an ancestor of modern whales."

I like how they talk about "skull alone." The only known specimen of Andrewsarchus is a skull.

Andrewsarchus is generally thought to be part of a group called mesonychids, a group from the Paleocene to Oligocene of the northern hemisphere. Most of the mesonychids were more in the size range of domestic dogs. One of the most interesting things about mesonychids is that they combined two unusual features: hooves on their feet (or at least flattened nails rather than claws) and teeth indicating a carnivorous to omnivorous diet. Andrewsarchus was actually thought to be more on the omnivorous end, kind of like a giant bear.

As far as their relations to whales, that idea only recently has been dealt a number of blows. First, DNA sequences placed hippos as the closest relatives of whales, which definitely would remove mesonychids from the family tree. Paleontologists were (and many still are) skeptical, but, within the last couple of years, fossils were discovered of early terrestrial whales with complete hind limbs, and their ankles clearly demonstrate an affinity to the artiodactyls ("even-toed" hoofed mammals) that include cows, sheep, antelopes, giraffes, deer, pigs, and hippos. Thus, many paleontologists are more willing to accept the whale-hippo relationship now.

Getting back to the original intention of the thread, there are lots of prehistoric creatures that could be fit into a campaign. Most of them could simply be slotted into an existing dire template. For instance, Archaeotherium is a big ugly pig-like creature that could probably just use the stats for a dire boar. I think MM2 expanded the list of prehistoric creatures; IIRC, they had the 18 foot tall hornless rhino, Baluchitherium (also known as Indricotherium or Paraceratherium), as well as a giant ground sloth. How about glyptodonts, giant grazing tank-like armadillo relatives?

Since marsupials have been mentioned, I'd put my vote in for Diprotodon, essentially a rhino-sized wombat. And how about giant flightless birds, like the carnivorous Phorusrhacos (is that in a book already?) or Diatryma, or the simply very large elephant birds or the simply tall moas? There are indeed lots of choices.

--Axe

 

[Desdichado]

Andrewsarchus is generally thought to be part of a group called mesonychids, a group from the Paleocene to Oligocene of the northern hemisphere. Most of the mesonychids were more in the size range of domestic dogs. One of the most interesting things about mesonychids is that they combined two unusual features: hooves on their feet (or at least flattened nails rather than claws) and teeth indicating a carnivorous to omnivorous diet. Andrewsarchus was actually thought to be more on the omnivorous end, kind of like a giant bear.

As far as their relations to whales, that idea only recently has been dealt a number of blows. First, DNA sequences placed hippos as the closest relatives of whales, which definitely would remove mesonychids from the family tree. Paleontologists were (and many still are) skeptical, but, within the last couple of years, fossils were discovered of early terrestrial whales with complete hind limbs, and their ankles clearly demonstrate an affinity to the artiodactyls ("even-toed" hoofed mammals) that include cows, sheep, antelopes, giraffes, deer, pigs, and hippos. Thus, many paleontologists are more willing to accept the whale-hippo relationship now.

That's fascinating! Do you know any references for that?

Getting back to the original intention of the thread, there are lots of prehistoric creatures that could be fit into a campaign. Most of them could simply be slotted into an existing dire template. For instance, Archaeotherium is a big ugly pig-like creature that could probably just use the stats for a dire boar. I think MM2 expanded the list of prehistoric creatures; IIRC, they had the 18 foot tall hornless rhino, Baluchitherium (also known as Indricotherium or Paraceratherium), as well as a giant ground sloth. How about glyptodonts, giant grazing tank-like armadillo relatives?

Since marsupials have been mentioned, I'd put my vote in for Diprotodon, essentially a rhino-sized wombat. And how about giant flightless birds, like the carnivorous Phorusrhacos (is that in a book already?) or Diatryma, or the simply very large elephant birds or the simply tall moas? There are indeed lots of choices.

Most of them are already statted, really, if you think about it. What's a dire boar, but one of the really big ugly prehistoric warthogs (or maybe an entelodont). For Phorusrhacus you can use an axebeak easily enough. Really, all the "dire" animals are probably better off as a something prehistoric -- there weren't really "dire" animals out there in the sense that D&D paints them.

Oh, I think Indricotherium was in FF, not MM2 though. Not that it matters too much.

 

[Tonguez]

Giant Eagle Harpagornis Moorie - the Giant Eagle of New Zealand (its claws were about 8 cm long and could pierce bone. They were said to sometimes carry off children)

One thing thats always fascinated me is Birds with teeth and the proto-avian 'dinosaurs'. IMC Velociraptors are covered in feathers