OD&D BECMI - Basic/Expert: what happens if you try to cast Charm on an enemy that has already been charmed by the BBEG?

[Strider1973]

Hi everybody, pretty much what the thread title says: in BECMI, acoording to the Rules as Written, what happens if a PC cast a Charm Spell on a creature that is already under a Charm Spell cast by a higher level wizard, namely the main villain of the adventure? Is rhere any clear rule about this? At the moment I can't remember one, what am I missing?
Many thanks!

 

[Reynard]

The Rules Cyclopedia does not say anything about multiple charm effects (I just looked) so I think both work, but for the purposes of the second spell the BBEG is the charmed creature's ally. The normal rules apply from there. Just remember if either caster asks the charmed character to do something that endangers themself, they get a new save.

 

[Strider1973]

Thank you so much, I too was looking into the Rules Cyclopedia but I didn't find anything. Thank you so much!

 

[Voadam]

RAW I believe both charms are in effect and the victim feels that both casters are their best friends and would defend either and take commands from either.

I don't have an electronic copy of BECMI Basic but I would go with the exact language of the edition you are using as they can vary a bit with slightly different sounding lines. RC commands to a charmed person it says should sound like suggestions from your best friend, for example, while B/X it is phrased as just any commands that do not cross the alignment or established habits or kill yourself lines.

The RC version also has a section talking about possible conflicts that can be a guide:

"A victim who is given conflicting orders and impressions by his old adventuring friends and his new "best friend" should react as any person would in real life: with confusion. He will not automatically assume that one party or the other is lying . . . even if the player wants him to."

From B/X:

Charm Person Range: 120'
Duration: See below
This spell can be used on any human, or human-like creature (such as bugbears, gnolls, gnomes, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, lizard men, ogres, pixies, or sprites). It will not affect undead, nor creatures larger than an ogre. If the victim fails to make a saving throw vs. Spells, the victim will believe that the spell caster is its "best friend" and will try to defend the caster against any threat (real or imagined). If the caster speaks a language that the charmed creature understands, commands may be given to the victim. Any commands given will usually be obeyed, except that orders against its nature (alignment and habits) may be resisted, and an order to kill itself will be refused. Creatures with above average intelligence (a score of 13-18) may make a new saving throw each day. Creatures with average intelligence (a score of 9-12, which includes the monsters listed above) may save again once per week, and creatures with below average intelligence (a score of 3-8) may save again once each month. (A charm may be removed by a dispel magic spell.)

 

[Kai Lord]

Page 3 of the Expert Rulebook says:

"Multiple Spell Effects

Hit rolls, damage rolls, Saving Throws, Morale, and other abilities may be affected for a short time by using certain magic spells. In general, multiples of the same spell (such as two bless spells) do not combine their effects, even if cast by two different characters. Two haste spells do not allow attacks at four times the normal rate; only the first haste will take effect."

So RAW could be taken to mean that two charm person spells cast by two different characters do not stack and a character cannot be charmed by two casters simultaneously and the recipient is immune to all other charms while the first is still in effect. However there is the "in general" caveat stated above allowing a DM to decide that charm person can be an exception to the general rule.

 

[Voadam]

Page 3 of the Expert Rulebook says:

"Multiple Spell Effects

Hit rolls, damage rolls, Saving Throws, Morale, and other abilities may be affected for a short time by using certain magic spells. In general, multiples of the same spell (such as two bless spells) do not combine their effects, even if cast by two different characters. Two haste spells do not allow attacks at four times the normal rate; only the first haste will take effect."

So RAW could be taken to mean that two charm person spells cast by two different characters do not stack and a character cannot be charmed by two casters simultaneously and the recipient is immune to all other charms while the first is still in effect. However there is the "in general" caveat stated above allowing a DM to decide that charm person can be an exception to the general rule.

One could also RAW read that as them not combining effects but still being independently operative. So two hastes would not combine to double attacks twice for four times the attacks, but would both be in effect in case one were dispelled. So two charm persons by the same caster for example would not double the intensity of a charm, but both would still be in effect.

 

[Kai Lord]

One could also RAW read that as them not combining effects but still being independently operative. So two hastes would not combine to double attacks twice for four times the attacks, but would both be in effect in case one were dispelled. So two charm persons by the same caster for example would not double the intensity of a charm, but both would still be in effect.

Yes, I would be inclined to allow two charms from two separate casters with the recipient believing both to be his/her best friend as long as each spell was in effect.