Beefing up a monk

[Oryan77]

The player in my game that runs a monk NEVER seems to shine in combat. Everyone is 7th lvl except for him which he'll hit 7th after our next session. The sorcerer is doing massive lightning bolt damage now, our half-giant fighter lays into guys with his +8 bonus to Str, and even the Cleric with his 20 Str always gets his good hits in without even buffing with spells. But the monk doesn't do squat.

The player created him as a Dwarven "grappling" monk with a 13 Str. Every combat is the same, he gets in a grapple, does about 4 damage if he's lucky to even strike the guy, and he usually does 0 damage due to DR. The reason he grapples is because he does automatic damage the first round on a successful grapple. He also has some feats that supposedly allow him to be a better grappler. But I haven't seen how this helps him at all.

The sorcerer used her LB spell for the first time and did 34 points of damage. The monk player makes a side comment about how when he's 20th level he'll be doing 2d10 damage or something. If a sorcerer at 7th lvl is already doing more damage than a 20th lvl monk, I must be overlooking the monks abilities. In what ways is the monk supposed to be affective?

I've never been a big fan of the monk so I'm not very inventive with monk creations. What can I do to help make the monk player shine in combat with more damaging attacks? Maybe I should be suggesting some feats or sticking some magic items in there for him. Any advice from the monk fans?

 

[Shin Okada]

Frankly speaking, Monks will never shine in combat, unless you give him more magic items, more ability scores, or special situations which favor monk. Basically, Monk is the weakest core class IMHO.

And, low-strength makes a monk even worse. People tend to try low-str/high-dex monk as it seems stylish. But it doesn't work indeed. Also, while grappling specialists tend to be good against medium-sized opponents (especially against casters), they are quite ineffective against larger foes.

Becoming either Fist of Zuoken (from EPH) or Sacred Fist (from CD) may help. But I am not sure it is enough to make him shine.

 

[Oberyn]

Shin i believe he asked for monk FANS.

I personally love monks. Mainly what a grappler is usefull for is take out the caster.

With that low of a str im assuming he has a high dex and weapon finesse well you could allow it to apply to grapple checks (i grapple, and beleive me the squirmy guys are harder to beat then the strong ones). Possibly a few levels in psychic warrior could help him. grip of iron gives +4 to grapple and expansion give another +4 from being large. Pin a caster and they cant cast. For just a lil under 9 k you can have a caster permanently enlarge you increasing your damage and grapple checks.

To deal extra damage just give him a necklace of natural weapons (unarmed) it can be enchanted as magical weapons can just enhancment price+600. To bypass DR possibly give him fist wraps or leg wraps with studs of different metals.


There is a few feats. one in sandstorm that allows you to start a grapple anytime you hit with an unarmed attack. Also there is one in quintessential fighter that allows you to apply both dex and strength bonus to grapple checks.

There is a magical armor enhancement worth a +2 bonus that gives them armor spikes (might want to pick up prof. with those) and give a +2 to grapple checks. There is a mundane item for 200 gold its a suit that gives you +4 to grapple checks so long as you treat it with a flask of oil. you cannot wear armor so simply give him bracers of armor +1 and then give him that barbed/bladed enchantment.

(P.S. please excuse any spelling errors. i broke my main hand so not only can i not grapple now i also cannot type well with my off hand alone.)

Hope i helped!

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Monks are good against arcane casters. They can run up and pound them into the pavement or grapple them and make them squeal for mercy. They're also potential champions of dealing with DR; by 19th level, a specifically built monk (Mnk 11*/Henshin Mystic 8) can get through DR that's magic, lawful, holy, piercing**, and adamantine. Slashing DR is fairly easy, IIRC, either through Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries-2 (...which is a good class for epic levels, as it increases your unarmed damage regardless) or an item (I forget which).

* - To get Greater Flurry, in case anyone was wondering.

** - Toothed Fist, from Stormwrack, allows unarmed strikes to act as piercing weapons, which gets around the whole "using blunt instruments underwater" issue.

However, his build and tactics would seem to negate most of the monk's advantages of speed and damage. He should probably have gone for more Str, since that frees up a precious, precious feat slot and means more hit *and* damage. Sure, he doesn't get hit as much, but if you're going to use Weapon Finesse, you better have a darn good bonus to Dex already. Also, by being a grapple monster, he doesn't get to use his mobility much at all. He seems to have a poor grasp on who to grapple and when, too.

Brad

 

[Shin Okada]

Shin i believe he asked for monk FANS.

Yeah. But sometimes a pessimistic opinion helps more than an optimistic opinion to realize that monks do need big bumps (and clever coordinate) to become an efficient character. Isn't it?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

IMO, monks shine when faced with masses of humanoid mooks (TWF + FLurry) or working in concert with other PC's tactically.

Sure, they will never be the highest damage dealers.. but they should be able to close with and disable key enemies. The player should focus on relatively safe manuevering ability and special combat manuevers. If headed down the Grapple King route, ensure he is paired up with a Rogue to take advantage of the Sneak Attacking.

If you want more damage, Eberron has some feats that allow limited multi-classing for monks..expanding thier options some. Fists of Zouken is a decent PrC as well.


Much of thier power is also based on the availablity of magic items usable by them, either created by the party mage or found in the setting.
Also, like Druids and Bards.. a Monk character alters how the game sessions get played out and what kind of plots are appropriate for the group. The DM will need to adjust the style of play for these abilities. Find a key element in each session where a Monk ability can shine.
A good example of this is the Jump skill. An encounter where the Monk can clear obstacles with a series of balance and jump checks, reaching an enemy capable of firing across the obstacle can provide the player more satisfaction.

I have a monk player and work hard at getting his character to be usefull.. he is only 4th level now (just acheived ).. so staying alive has been a good goal so far

 

[Oberyn]

Yeah. But sometimes a pessimistic opinion helps more than an optimistic opinion to realize that monks do need big bumps (and clever coordinate) to become an efficient character. Isn't it?

Not unless you actually give them some helpfull advice other than two presteige classes that you say MAY help the situation...lol although i have to admit you were right those would help.

 

[Storyteller01]

Go back to 3.0's Oriental Adventures. Lots of feats specifically for unarmed combat, with choke hold being a good choice for grappling experts (If the opponent can't break the grapple or make the Fort save, their unconscious for X rounds). I've heard that the sourcebook is considered broken, but the monks inability to fight on a level playing field may be why this is so. That, and I enjoy throwing BBEG monks/ninjas at the characters.

The feats do allow the monk to disable opponents with various effects (blinding, pain, unconsciousness, trips, etc). This makes up for the lack of damage IMO.

 

[CGoat]

With a monk... you need to have a high str. My GM tells me my monk is the first one he's seen that actually works (18 str) and every 4 levels... another point in str. get your ac up with magic you get the best saves in the game... no need for uber dex/wis/con BTW at high level... saves are key more so with evasion.

I suggest and enlarge it would help the monk out a lot... but with his low str he's still going to have troubles hitting.

Have the cleric cast Spikes on the monks club or quarterstaff give him a +2 club +1damage per caster level of cleric so at 8th level with his str 1d6+11 he can also use it as part of a flurry so club/offhand/club

Right now we have a monk that has psionic levels... it sucks.. he'll waste two rounds giving himself armor then enlarge himself... most of the time he'll enlarge himself before he moves through the door because it would provoke AoO so then he has to squeeze.. its a waste.

Oh and get the sorcerer to hit him with a mage armor... it goes great with monks

 

[Mad Mac]

Monks and Strength

I find it interesting that in, say, Japanese anime and video games, unarmed martial art fighters are almost always the buff, muscley characters. It's the guys and gals with slashy and stabby instruments who get to be light and graceful. Where does the "lightweight" martial artist concept come from, I wonder?

Perhaps it's just that, in america, martial arts was associated with asians, who were generally smaller/thinner than the general population...so it got that image of being a fighting style for little guys. Of course, there's also the fact that most Japanese arts are what you would call hard styles. But even if you go with the "old kung-fu master" relying on chi over physical strength, you're going to need a good strength score to simulate the kind of power they get credited with.

But on topic, I agree that strength is crucial for monks, all the more so for grappling builds. I'd allow him to change his ability scores around some, or maybe hook him up with a belt of giant strength. Monks who skimp on strength will regret it, 9 times out of 10.

He's also going to need the best enhancements bonuses he can get. At a bare minimum, make sure the party spellcasters keep him outfitted with mage sheild and magic weapon, and encourage him to pick up a unarmed blow enhancing item. Keep in mind that the Amulet of Blows is priced for a non-fitting item slot, and should only cost 2x weapon price if made into gloves or similar items.