Beginning to Doubt That RPG Play Can Be Substantively "Character-Driven"

pemerton

Legend
pemerton said:
If I want to run a game that will give me the feel of Ben Hur, it's probably a limitation if the system doesn't have any way to resolve chariot races, or interactions with prophets and holy men.

If the OP wants to run a character-driven game, it's a limitation if the system doesn't have the mechanics needed for the player to try (and perhaps fail) to put his/her PC's mark on the gameworld. If that domain of finality of resolution is confined to combat then that is going to be a pretty big bar to character-driven play.
Do you really need game mechanics for that though?
For what? Chariot races? Meetings with prophets and holy men? Domains of activity beyond combat?

@Ovinomancer and @hawkeyefan have both posted upthread about the centrality, to character-driven play, of risk to the character.

In the absence of mechanics whereby the player, in attempting to have his/her PC put his/her mark on the gameworld, can fail, then we don't have character-driven play of the sort @innerdude referred to in the OP. There is no chance (to borrow hawkeyefan's language) of the player discovering that his/her PC is actually not A at all, but rather is B. All there is is GM fiat combined (perhaps) with table consensus.

And ignoring D&D while addressing those issues is largely unhelpful to the vast majority of readers.
I'm posting in response to the OP. There are plenty of participants in this thread who are doing likewise, and who do not use D&D as the principal or even secondary frame of reference for talking about these things.

Won't someone think of the D&D players?! There's a lot of them around. I'm sure that as a group they don't need me, or even this thread, to help them out!
 

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pemerton

Legend
Resolving chariot races need only draw on whatever that system might use for movement rules or chase/pursuit rules, modified by the GM to suit the situation.
Here are some prominent RPG systems I know of that have no rules for resolving chases/pursuits in a way that would make for a satisfying chariot race:

* AD&D (the dungeon pursuit rules just compare movement rates,; the outdoor evasion rules are not relevant to chariot races);

* B/X D&D (ditto);

* Classic Traveller (the referee would have to make up some rules based around the vehicle skill);

* Rolemaster (there are rules for resolving vehicular manoeuvres, but not in the context of a race - the GM would have to make up a system for opposed checks);

* I think RQ also has the RM problem, but I'm a bit less confident about that as it's been a while.

"Resolving" interactions with prophets or holy types rolls right into the point I'm trying to make: those interactions can occur and be roleplayed through but IMO without external pressure (which would almost invariably drift quickly into combat rules and-or GM fiat) they cannot ever be resolved in finality.
I have no idea what you mean by "resolved in finality". I mean something fairly concrete - an outcome to the present fictional situation is established, by application of the resolution mechanics, and is binding on all participants, most saliently in this context the GM.

Gygax's morale rules in his DMG assume this sort of finality, inherited from wargaming: if a unit breaks than the player controlling it can't just arbitrarily (eg in the absence of some sort of "rally" mechanic) decide that it returns to the fight.

Classic Traveller in its rules for NPC reaction rolls expressly provides for finality. From p 23 of the 1977 version:

Reactions are used by the referee and by players as a guide to the probable actions of individuals. . . . Reactions govern the reliability and quality of hirelings and employees. Generally, they would re-roll reactions in the fact of extremely bad treatment or unusually dangerous tasks​

The GM can't just decide that a NPC changes his/her mind after the reaction is rolled for. Something significant in the fiction, initiated by the players (eg bad treatment, dangerous task) is required.

If nothing is binding on the GM, then nothing is character driven via the actual mechanical processes of play as described in the OP. There is only the GM deciding what happens.

I suppose it hinges on what you mean by "mark on the gameworld".
It could be anything. In a Rolemaster campaign a PC wanted to end slavery in the Great Kingdom. Another PC in that campaign wanted to ally with Vecna to take over the government of the Great Kingdom, but also helped his sometime companion (the first-mentioned PC) at a key point in his anti-slavery and anti-chauvinist aspirations.

In a different RM campaign a PC met a sorcerer on another plane and helped rescue her. He then set out to woo and marry her. In the end he succeeded in this endeavour, the player having built up the PC's social skills sufficiently to make it possible.

In our Prince Valiant game one of the PCs started play as a squire - the son of a moderately prosperous bourgeois family - and wanted to be knighted. He achieved this by challenging a knight to a joust who was blocking the path and would relent only if defeated in a joust by a fellow knight:


The PC asked for a joust, but the proud Sir Lionheart declined to joust with a mere squire. To which the PC responded, "Fine, I'll just continue on my way then!" and tried to pass Sir Lionheart and continue along the road. This called for a Presence vs Presence check, which the PC won - and so Sir Lionheart knighted him so that he could joust and perhaps succeed where the others had failed.

That's a mark made on the gameworld, in virtue of finality of resolution.

I-as-PC might be trying to talk the party into chipping in funds toward a castle for use as a home base. Should a game mechanic be allowed to determine whether I succeed or fail?
Different systems approach this in different ways:

* In Burning Wheel, this can and normally should be resolved via a Duel of Wits;

* In MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic it can be resolved via the use of the standard resolution mechanics (this happened in our game on Sunday when the dwarf tried to dress down Gandalf but failed, and Gandalf instead mad him feel ashamed of questioning a wizard's judgement);

* In 4e D&D there is no system for player vs player social conflict, which takes this mostly out of the ambit of character-driven arcs;

* In Apocalypse World a player can't force another player to have his/her PC do something, but can make doing something difficult and/or create mechanical incentives (ie XP awards) to do something else.​

In those last two games, the rules are different vs NPCs: 4e D&D has pretty robust mechanics for the players to have their PCs force their will upon NPCs; and Apocalypse World does also. Here's the AW move:

Seduce or Manipulate
When you try to seduce or manipulate someone, tell them what you want and roll+hot. For NPCs: on a hit, they ask you to promise something first, and do it if you promise. On a 10+, whether you keep your promise is up to you, later. On a 7–9, they need some concrete assurance right now. For PCs: on a 10+, both. On a 7–9, choose 1:
• if they do it, they mark experience​
• if they refuse, it’s acting under fire​
What they do then is up to them.​

All these differences affect the play experience.

if they say 'no', a game mechanic should never prevent me from trying again later
Once (and as best I recall only once) in our 4e game, when debate about what to do next had dragged on to a point beyond decency, I called for opposed d20 checks, I think with adds on each side reflecting CHA bonuses.

Twice in our Classic Traveller game I've called for opposed checks to settle a debate between the PCs (being played out at the table) with modifiers reflecting noble status (ie Social Standing B+) and Leadership skill.

I've got no particular aversion to applying finality of resolution in these contexts, though as I've posted above not every system provides for it. (For what it's worth, I think what I did was a much bigger hack of 4e than Traveller, which is probably why it happened once in 100-ish sessions of D&D whereas has happened twice in a dozen-ish sessions of Traveller.)
 



hawkeyefan

Legend
Do you really need game mechanics for that though?

This is pretty much what it boils down to. Need is a strong word, and implies that you can't do without. And I don't think that's the case.

Do you need combat mechanics for D&D? Not really. The GM can just decide, given the comparative strength of each side in a conflict, who wins.

That seems to be how many are advocating for social interaction with D&D. Relying solely on role play. So why not do the same for combat?

The answer is that D&D places more focus on combat. Which is not a bad thing. Sometimes pointing this out seems to rub people the wrong way....as if what's being said is that D&D is somehow "lesser". But that's not the case. It's simply about different things.

So all value judgement aside, D&D has a lot of combat based rules because it focuses on combat, it's about combat.

If you wanted to play a RPG that was more about the characters than about where they go and who they fight, then it would probably make sense to play a game that has rules and mechanics that promote that the same way that D&D promotes combat, doesn't it?

Having such rules may not be necessary, but don't you think it would help?

A game's mechanics tell us what the game is meant to be about.
 


Do you really need game mechanics for that though?

Here is a quick case study.

Torchbearer is a brutal, dungeon crawl game where the guttering light of a torch/candle/lantern and the PCs' individual and collective "coming-unglued" state are the epicenter of all 3 of (a) the suffocating, unnerving feel of play, (b) the status/change/failure of Player Characters, and (c) the mechanics and GMing ethos that perpetuates the whole.

There are basically multiple, player-facing, ticking clocks that are constantly counting down...constantly counting down...like the dying, flickering flame.

Players have to manage their resources (time, equipment, effort in terms of load-out and PC staying power) amidst the multiple, player-facing feedback loops that is stressing their wits and their will to continue. Characters are routinely changed forevermore (mechanically and those attendant effects on subsequent fiction...and this isn't something a player can opt-out from...the game's machinery makes it so...but they have a huge say in its manifestation), and rarely for the better.

If you're familiar with the video game "Darkest Dungeon", it was inspired by and cribbed most of its tech from Crane's Torchbearer.




Now take Dungeon World. It isn't built for this style of play (its built for something else). However, you can hack it to make it something like "Darkest Dungeon World." You can put in moves that emulate the guttering light, have resources that work similarly (timescale and effectiveness), deploy a pair of Apocalypse World's (and Blade's) Clocks to give shape to the player-facing turn structure + countdown of light failing and conditions being accrued, you can use Harm/Trauma instead of DW's Hit Points.

You can make a very good hack that hews to Torchbearer's oppressive feel and stressful (but wonderful) experience and the inevitable weight that imposes brutally difficult decision-points upon the characters and ultimately changes them.

But its just not going to be perfect in its approximation. While awesome, it will feel subtly different. And that is before you even deal with trying to hack the other phases (Journey, Town, Winter) of the game which are absolutely central to the holistic play experience!

You're going to get some of this stuff wrong...its going to feel wobbly and askew both during play and upon reflection...regardless how many times you iterate.




Now sub out all of that game machinery that has been carefully and beautifully rendered to create (i) feel, (ii) the ever-escalating situation and all its attendant decision-points, (iii) the GM guidance and constraint such that everything is dynamic, coherent, reproducible, (iv) the finality of each conflict and then adventure such that there is no opting-out...no softening the blow...no GM Force/Illusionism to artificially make things better or worse...you get what you deserve and the Sword of Damocles is ever-looming . Get rid of the player-facing, transparent aspects of play that inform the decision-tree and emotional quality of each moment.

Now sub in "GM decides", overwhelmingly GM-facing machinery that isn't tightly rendered and quality controlled to create an exact play experience (that is left to the GM), and the means for players to just opt-out of both conflicts and their fallout if both of the GM allows for it.




These three things are not the same thing. They aren't the same in feel or weight from moment-to-moment, they aren't the same in terms of the experience of navigating individual decision-points, they aren't the same in terms of stress/anxiety/crestfallenness/exaltation both during and upon reflection of what transpired.

This is saying nothing about what is better.

Its simply saying "the experience is just fundamentally not the same...and in big, meaningful ways."
 



@lowkey13

Thanks!

As to your post, it really depends on the participants.

If you put me at that GM's game, I 100 % guarantee I would know what has happening under the hood...and I would not be pleased. Neither that GM, nor myself (and I know the source material through and through and would put my hard-earned GMing skill-set up against anyone who has ever run a game) can remotely recreate something approximating the Torchbearer experience (neither the lovely agony of the hostile decision-trees that must constantly be navigated nor the overall emotional quality of play) via "GM Decides."

If he thinks he can, two things are happening; (1) he either hasn't wrangled his hubris or had it beaten out of him by exposure/experience and (2) his players' expectations are somewhat muted.

And neither of (1) nor (2) are objectively bad things (certainly not when it comes to market share). GMs with ample hubris and players with somewhat muted expectations (just looking to be entertained and/or be run through a compelling story and/or have a Power Fantasy fulfilled) are likely what makes up the overwhelming bulk of the tables in our hobby. And people are still playing and we're experiencing renewed vigor within the hobby.
 

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