Beguiler class works well

[Wolfwood2]

I've been playing through the Pathfinder: Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path with a Beguiler. Last night I played my first session with the PC as a Beguiler 6/Mindbender 1 (going to continue as a straight Beguiler). With seven levels of play under my belt, I feel qualified to offer some actual play experience on the Beguiler class.

It works really well at allowing me to place a character who tricks, confuses, debuffs, and messes with enemies. The class features, spell list, and skill list do a good job of encouraging tricks, feints, and surprises.

One average I'm getting to pull off (or try to pull off) a nice trick at least once per session. Highlights include:

-Convincing goblins behind a locked fortress door to open up for us

-Rushing upstairs disguised as a cultist to warn that "intruders are on the way" and then using a scroll of lightning bolt from the back ranks

-Making the whole party invisible with a Sphere just when we needed it most

-Springing an ambush by a pack of ghouls with a Silent Image

-Catching invisible enemies with a well-timed Glitterdust on at least four occasions

...and hindering, delaying, or putting in a vulnerable position other enemies on many occasions.

It's not that you couldn't do the same thing with another class, but Beguiler really encourages lateral thinking. Unlike a rogue or a sorcerer, damage is what a Beguiler does when they can't think of anything better to do. At their best, Beguilers are the perfect set-up men.

Anyone else have good experiences with this class?

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

My experiences pretty much match yours.

I love the class. Part of me wonders if it is overpowered. It's definitely fun, and effective.

Ken

 

[Masquerade]

Part of me wonders if it is overpowered.

IME, this is very campaign-specific. In a 3-session mini-campaign I DMed last summer, one of the PCs was a beguiler who never lived up to his full potential due to the fast-paced and combat-heavy nature of that campaign.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

One of my players is thinking about playing a Beguiler in my new SCAP campaign. If he does he may be filling the Rogue role with his Beguiler. I'm not sure how that will go with that, given that there are quite a few traps in the first couple of levels of the campaign.

From looking at the they seem to be a bit of Rogue and a bit of Sorcerer but they are not really as good as either class in that particular area. Beguilers tend not to have as many skill points as a Rogue to fill out all the skills required by the skill monkey. They also have a very limited spell list to pick spells from.

I guess I might find out how effective they are very shortly.

Olaf the Stout

 

[shilsen]

I've been running a gnome beguiler in a PbP Shackled City AP (joined at 10th lvl and now 13th) and am having an absolute blast. I run the PC as selfish and amoral, as well as being a tactical genius with a bit of a Napoleon complex. As Wolfwood2 noted, if he's doing damage in a fight it means he's not functioning at peak effectiveness and is usually doing it to try and lure the enemies into a trap of some kind. He messes with the foe's minds (in and out of combat) and weakens them, while making his allies stronger and keeping them safe (till recently, he was the party healer too, using UMD). Thus far, with a combination of strategy and tactics, he's managed to keep every other PC alive (sometimes despite their best efforts), never been in real danger himself, and helped the group totally dominate a lot of fights that should have caused a huge amount of trouble for us.

In short, I think it's a class you shouldn't use if you're not willing to really think a lot both in and (especially) out of combat, but if you're ready to do so, it's great fun.

 

[Voadam]

I had great fun playing one in Savage Tide, even though every other monster ended up being a mindless vermin, construct, or undead immune to my spells. Spellcasting and playing a face character role was a fun combo.

Do beguilers have lightning bolt on their spell list? Or did you max out UMD?

 

[Wolfwood2]

I had great fun playing one in Savage Tide, even though every other monster ended up being a mindless vermin, construct, or undead immune to my spells. Spellcasting and playing a face character role was a fun combo.

Do beguilers have lightning bolt on their spell list? Or did you max out UMD?

Use Magic Device is a great class skill to have.

I actually finished off the big boss of the adventure with a scroll of Shatter and a good Use Magic Device check. After we dispelled the creature's buff spells (including its fly) and beat on it, it Dimension Doored to the outside of the tower we were fighting in. Because it had a climb speed it was able to cling there, outside of easy melee range. I reasoned that if it was clinging like that, it must be holding onto some outcropping or decorative niche.

Pull out the scroll of Shatter, break its support, and it plummeted 150 feet to its doom.

It's rare you can get a cinematically appropriate death like that one!

 

[drothgery]

From looking at the they seem to be a bit of Rogue and a bit of Sorcerer but they are not really as good as either class in that particular area. Beguilers tend not to have as many skill points as a Rogue to fill out all the skills required by the skill monkey. They also have a very limited spell list to pick spells from.

Eh. IIRC, they're int-based casters (so you'll want to have a high int score anyway) and get 6 skill points per level to start with. They should be fine in skill points, especially if you neglect skills that can easily be replaced by magic (open lock and climb come to mind). And they're warmage-style casters; the beguiller list is a bit limitted, but they get everything on it (they don't need to pick and choose).

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

The beguiler is every bit as good as a rogue at dealing with traps. In fact, he's better -- since INT is his main stat, his Search/Disable device scores will be better than a typical rogue. About the only thing useful for dealing with traps that a beguiler lacks is Evasion. He can even take Insightful Reflexes, if you want his Reflex save to be high.

He'll have as many or more skill points than a rogue in the long run, because his main Stat is INT, and that will outweigh the +2 skill points per level that a rogue gets. And unlike a rogue, he has a good Will save.

He knows many more spells at each level than a sorcerer. Way, way more spells. He doesn't know damage dealing spells, but it's generally better to be throwing a Glitterdust or a Feeblemind than a fireball or cone of cold in most situations anyway.

What he mostly lacks is damage dealing spells at every level, and high level mobility spells. He can deal damage via wands of scorching ray at low levels, and a staff of fire or something similar at high levels, using Use Magic Device. But really, if the best thing for your beguiler to do at any point is deal damage, there's something really wrong -- he almost always has better options.

One of my players is thinking about playing a Beguiler in my new SCAP campaign. If he does he may be filling the Rogue role with his Beguiler. I'm not sure how that will go with that, given that there are quite a few traps in the first couple of levels of the campaign.

From looking at the they seem to be a bit of Rogue and a bit of Sorcerer but they are not really as good as either class in that particular area. Beguilers tend not to have as many skill points as a Rogue to fill out all the skills required by the skill monkey. They also have a very limited spell list to pick spells from.

I guess I might find out how effective they are very shortly.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Olaf the Stout]

The beguiler is every bit as good as a rogue at dealing with traps. In fact, he's better -- since INT is his main stat, his Search/Disable device scores will be better than a typical rogue. About the only thing useful for dealing with traps that a beguiler lacks is Evasion. He can even take Insightful Reflexes, if you want his Reflex save to be high.

He'll have as many or more skill points than a rogue in the long run, because his main Stat is INT, and that will outweigh the +2 skill points per level that a rogue gets. And unlike a rogue, he has a good Will save.

I disagree that he is better than a Rogue at dealing with traps. Rogues get 8+ Int bonus skill points per level. The Beguiler gets 6+ Int bonus. Yes, the Beguiler will generally have a good Int, giving him bonuses to skill points. However I think that Int is one of the most important Stats for Rogues. A high Int gives them more skill points, making them an even better skill monkey than they already are. The Beguiler also has to spend skill points maxing out Concentration since it is a very important skill for his class. This leaves less points available for other skills like Disable Device. I would call this even in regards to points available to spend on trap finding and disabling skills.

However Rogues get Trapsense. Beguilers do not. Trapsense makes it easier for Rogues to avoid traps that they accidentally set off while trying to disable them (or didn't spot at all). Rogues also have good Reflex saves, while Beguilers have good Will Saves. Most traps generally have Reflex saves to avoid their effects. Even if they do fail their Reflex save they have Evasion to help them limit the damage they take.

Of course, I have not played a Beguiler on been in a game where someone has played one so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

Olaf the Stout