Best Mass Combat/Skirmish Rules for DND/d20?

[dreaded_beast]

So far, I have taken a look at the Miniatures Handbook Mass Combat and Skirmish Rules, as well as Malhavoc's Cry Havoc PDF.

I still need to read Cry Havok a bit more, but I like what I see so far.

For the Miniatures Handbook, I only skimmed over the Mass Combat rules, but didn't really like how they seem to stray away from the normal d20 combat rules (I could be wrong however, since I only skimmed them). The skirmish rules are interesting, but I don't see them as really being useful for me in terms of running combats with a large number of combatants. The skirmish rules seem like a watered-down version of the normal DnD combat rules.

What are you suggestions for the best published DnD/d20 mass combat/skirmish rules?

 

[DragonLancer]

I'd like one that didn't rely on miniatures, and wasn't too hung up on tactics, but at the same time didn't reduce the battle down to a series of random dice rolls.

 

[Droogie]

If you can find it, Fields of Blood: The Book of War by Eden Studios has a really nice mass combat system. There are rules for converting any creature into a unit, rules for sieges, and air units. You don't need minis, but you do need to make your own counters somehow. Also, many units you have to make from scratch. They don't have any pre-fab generic "light infantry" or what-not.

The first half of the book are the realm management rules. unless you're starting a new game from scratch on a custom-made map, they are largely useless. They do make a nice "board game" though.

If you see the book, check out the mass combat rules and ignore the realm rules.

 

[Ranger REG]

If you can find it, Fields of Blood: The Book of War by Eden Studios

I second that recommendation.

 

[Umbran]

I'd like one that didn't rely on miniatures, and wasn't too hung up on tactics, but at the same time didn't reduce the battle down to a series of random dice rolls.

How do you define "tactics"?

From where I sit, virtually any combat is a tactical/strategic game, be it small group skirmish or large scale warfare. How do you expect to play through battle without expecting tatics to be playing a large part? Especially when you don't want tactics, and you don't want randomness. What do you want it to depend upon?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I'd like one that didn't rely on miniatures, and wasn't too hung up on tactics, but at the same time didn't reduce the battle down to a series of random dice rolls.

Yeah, that'd be good. Something tables-based, like those old fighting and WWI air-combat books, but with modifiers for special circumstances and advantages.

"Okay, so you ordered your cavalry to flank to your right, and I ordered my infantry to wheel to my right and attempt to close, so we cross-reference those ... uh-oh, I'm in trouble."

I think there are just too many variables in a fantasy game for it to be feasible, especially if you want your PCs to have more than a token effect on the combat. But I can't think of any other way to do it.

 

[Ranger REG]

How do you define "tactics"?

From where I sit, virtually any combat is a tactical/strategic game, be it small group skirmish or large scale warfare. How do you expect to play through battle without expecting tatics to be playing a large part? Especially when you don't want tactics, and you don't want randomness. What do you want it to depend upon?

Not many roleplayers think tactics when playing games. To them, it's more of a wargamer's thing, something they'd like to distance themselves away from.

As for defining tactics? Working together rather than individually to defate the opposing side. For many gamers of the previous editions, they prefer to go man-to-man combat in order to rack up the most monsters killed. The more monsters you killed, the more XP you rack up yourselves. Tactics come last when you killed your share of monsters and decided to kill your fellow players' share just to steal their XP awards ... or there is actually one powerful monster ("boss") to kill.

 

[DragonLancer]

Yeah, that'd be good. Something tables-based, like those old fighting and WWI air-combat books, but with modifiers for special circumstances and advantages.

"Okay, so you ordered your cavalry to flank to your right, and I ordered my infantry to wheel to my right and attempt to close, so we cross-reference those ... uh-oh, I'm in trouble."

I think there are just too many variables in a fantasy game for it to be feasible, especially if you want your PCs to have more than a token effect on the combat. But I can't think of any other way to do it.

Yeah, thats basically what I'm thinking. I'm not a tactician. I don't know military tactics, and apart from one player in my group, neither do my players. So I don't want to have to worry too much about it.

But I would like something to help determine the outcomes of large scale battles.