Best method of handling Skill Checks?

[FinalSonicX]

Hi, I'm kind of new here to ENWorld! Well, okay, I've actually been here forever so I'm not new, but I've been lurking for a few years and now I've decided to actually participate in the ongoing discussion here.

I've decided to create my own system after gaming for years and seeing the deficiencies with various systems such as AD&D and 3.5, but I've reached a snag. How should I handle skills/skill checks? I'd like to know about the best system people have seen in any RPG for skills and skill checks.

All of that said, I'd like to keep my skill checks keep a semblance of backwards compatibility with 3.5 and other 3.5 OGL products (my system won't really be truly compatible out of the box but I'm hoping for easy conversions).

If I kept with a 3.5-esque skill system, I have to ask about the skills themselves. In 3.5 we saw a huge list of skills that IMO were too numerous and some were too useless. In 4e we saw a reduction in the number of skills and I didn't like the number and generality of them at that point. So when I played Pathfinder it was nice to see some of them streamlined but there were still a huge number of them.

Here are my questions basically:

1. What is the best implementation of a skill system you've ever seen? Bonus points for semi-compatible systems with 3.5 OGL.
2. How many skills are "too many" for you and your group?
3. Do you think the situation-specific or less-general skills in 3.5 are bad to have because they're used less frequently and so not many people take them?
4. Have you ever had experiences in games with more generic skill systems where you wished there was more details and less ambiguity?
5. What kind of balance tweaks have you or would you implement in a 3.5 or PF style skill system and why do you use them?

thanks for any input you want to provide!

 

[Beginning of the End]

3. Do you think the situation-specific or less-general skills in 3.5 are bad to have because they're used less frequently and so not many people take them?

I don't. If a skill isn't coming up a lot in a campaign, there's no particular harm in having it sit around doing nothing.

For example, take a skill like "Sailing a Ship". Completely worthless in any urban-based campaign (unless it's based in Fantasy Venice) or dungeon-crawling campaign, but if you start up a game involving fantasy pirates it's going to be a pain in the ass if they "Sailing a Ship" has been conflated into Acrobatics or Survival or something daft.

Real example: In many campaigns, Decipher Script is ignored because DMs never provide anything to be deciphered. In my DM's campaign, it's a must-have skill because he strews around documents in archaic scripts all over the place. His campaign world also features magical encoding that can only be read by something having the proper key or the Decipher Script skill.

 

[howandwhy99]

1. What is the best implementation of a skill system you've ever seen? Bonus points for semi-compatible systems with 3.5 OGL.

Well, I'm still partial to the older games where what are typically called skills were static unless one had a class like Thief where those skills were the focus. Thief started at 1st level with the "every PC" DC + a bonus putting it on a higher granularity roll, percentile. Every level thereafter gained more points in any of the 8 skills to whatever extent the player wished to assign them. So all 15 points could go in 1 skill.

Other systems use a predetermined skill progression for the 8, but I like the player choice option.

I also allow for player generated skills, but I work with them to hash out the specifics of what each means and how that thins out their focus and progression in the class. Some skills are simply too high a level to gain at start, but as the PC goes up in level a player defined skill is more apt to be accepted.

2. How many skills are "too many" for you and your group?

As above, skills are by player choice and class. They decide how many is too many. My starting stats on the PC logs are about a dozen or so. But this includes things like PC name, known languages, etc., so it isn't overwhelming. I'd start lower and work to higher quantities as the game progresses.

3. Do you think the situation-specific or less-general skills in 3.5 are bad to have because they're used less frequently and so not many people take them?

As long as the players are the one's choosing what they want, I don't see it as bad. If they want to be forgers, then they can put the points in it.

What I see as the drawback in 3.x is many of the skill abilities should probably be class level-based and not part of a typical point buy system. Think if Combat Attack was a fighter skill and the fighter was 10th level and had never increased the ability? Are they a fighter or the best swimmer in four counties? By removing some of the "required to perform the class" skills, the rest of the skill points should be able to fill out non-class abilities (assuming that is why you are using a skill system along with a class system).

Skill tables by class could also be a nice throwback like with the Thief above. The class could gain "thief" points as well as "I'm a well-rounded person" points, but they don't mix for assigning scores.

4. Have you ever had experiences in games with more generic skill systems where you wished there was more details and less ambiguity?

I take it you mean the skills aren't defined enough for me as a player? What does the "do stuff" skill mean? Yes, but I also enjoy abilities I get to define and have those definitions be meaningful in the game system. For instance, Climbing is a generic skill, but if I started breaking out "Krom's school of climbing techniques" which I defined, then I want each of those to be numerically beneficial with the balancing drawbacks. Perhaps there is a limit on how many I get to define based upon level? Sort of like a feat cap, but I get to work with the DM to further define my specific elements of a generic skill like Climbing.

5. What kind of balance tweaks have you or would you implement in a 3.5 or PF style skill system and why do you use them?

I would remove so-called knowledge checks. I run a memory game and that's the primary skill the players are being tested in, so those go out almost right away.

For balancing I would do something like the siphoning off of certain skills to class skill table and non-class skill table, simply to ensure some level of class-based abilities were balanced regardless of player choices. This is simply so the combat system, magic system, clerical system, etc. all are balanced by PC class level.

 

[Smoss]

When I made my system I used a modified group of skills from 3.5e and SW saga. My skill list:

Skills - Doulairen

Perfect for what I use my system for... Might give some inspiration for ya.
Smoss

 

[FinalSonicX]

Thanks for that list of skills, that gives me some ideas for some groupings I could use if I end up with the 3.5 type system!

to howandwhy - I'm not entirely sold on the point buy system myself because how much fiddling needs to be done (and how oddly-specialized players can end up), so alternatives are always welcome! That being said, I think I'd like to include more crunchy bits than just suggesting that the dm and player work out their specialized skills as they see fit (unless I misunderstood your idea?)

As for separating class abilities and skill checks, I'm mostly in agreement and so my system primarily relies on class, level, and stats to determine most effects. I'm trying to avoid having to do too many rolls per action, though I'll probably still have skills involved in class actions at some level (obviously rogues have the closest ties with class abilities and skills as well as arguably bards).

My thoughts about the less used skills were that choosing the skill should be a valid and rational choice with actually well-defined uses in the system rather than just a skill you might use once or twice in a campaign like forgery usually is. It seems to me that each skill should be justified as a reasonable choice for characters who don't have a ton of skill points to throw around in random skills. From what I can tell, the skill points designated for a class are usually designed mathematically around the number of skills available to them. By having more skills available you either over-provide skill points so power-minded characters can cover their often-used skills and become too powerful/versatile, or you can under-provide skill points and then only a minute percentage of characters will end up investing points in the more obscure skills and so they end up being neglected even further.

It just seems to me that the number of skills changes the balance of the game and how you need to approach the design (especially with skills having wildly varying frequencies of use).

Any other insights?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Star Wars Saga Edition.

Everyone who is experienced gains baseline knowledge and competence in all skills, just like they gain baseline knowledge and competence in combat. There are some aspects of each [or many] skills which can only be done by trained individiuals (e.g., anyone can plot a hyperspace course when they're using a navicomputer, but only someone trained can do it in their head or with a slide rule).

Basic competence in a skill requires 1 point of skill training; basic mastery of a skill requires a feat. Thus, a talented, focused 1st-level character can easily get a +10 to their skill of choice, making hitting DC20 tasks doable routinely at 1st-level, but the bonuses do not scale much from there. Thus, "expert, but mundane slicers" don't have to be 10th-level combat powerhouses to do their jobs.

The only thing it doesn't handle well are skill check-vs-defense rolls; at low levels, the skill check is way to high vs. defense scores, and at high levels, it isn't high enough. There are various ways of fixing this, including "skill attack rolls" or "skill penalty when applied to a defense," etc.

 

[Starfox]

I prefer a really short and generic skill list - maybe 10 skills or so. Then use schticks/feats/powers to expand what you can do with these skills. This is what I've done for my homebrew.

Action skill page

Of course, this means there is a LOT of schticks.