Best Spell to Maximize

[Bonedagger]

I don't agree with Sean Reynold on the illusion part.

Invisibility can be detected by a secondlevel spell, Can be detected by a spot check only fools the visual senses and none of the examples he mentioned would be fooled by invisibility (It's very unlikely that is).

I would say that it is as said in the Corerules. It affects senses through some magic in place.

Sorry to hijack the hijack

 

[IceBear]

Then if you walked into a room with creatures that were immune to mind affecting spells, they would automatically see you?

If you cast invisibilty when surrounded by 100 creatures with SR, you'd have to roll for SR for each of them to see whether or not you affected their minds.

Again, read the glamer entry - it affects the sensory characteristics of something. In the case of invisibility, it affects light reflecting off of you. In the case of silence, it affects sound in the area of effect.

I too had issues with these spells being illusions at first, but as you can see glamers are mind effecting spells.

IceBear

 

[kreynolds]

My point is what do you think they mean by, "provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks", & the whole stopping sound thing.

I think the it means that the spell stops all sonic-based effects, such as deafness and stunning, but I don't think it stops raw sonic damage.

Are you saying that the Sonic discriptor is really a code word for [sonic/force]?

No. I'm saying that I think allowing Silence to block all sonic damage is too powerful.

 

[IceBear]

I don't simply because there are so few spells that cause sonic damage, and because to use it to protect yourself with can cause more trouble than it's worth. If you use energy substitution, switch to a different energy type.

I admit that there isn't a 2nd level spell that would protect so well against another element, but there are enough creatures immune to the other elements that this helps offset. There needs to be some penalty with using sonic spells (other than the entire dungeon hearing you of course).

IceBear

 

[Magic Rub]

I think the it means that the spell stops all sonic-based effects, such as deafness and stunning, but I don't think it stops raw sonic damage.

How is Sonic damage caused then if not by Sonic's? Force, Fire, Water, ect? If the damage is caused by different type of energy then it would cause damage. But in the example of a sonic - fire ball, the source of the damage would be sound (sonic), which would/could not exist in the area of effect of the silience spell.

 

[Xarlen]

I didn't realize Kyrenolds was still arguing over here. I would've stuck around longer. I was over at the other thread.

Anyways, here's a point that hasn't been desputed: Here's something else. Look at the Silence spell. It says sonic attacks. It gives spesific mention of the Horn of blasting.

From the SRD:

This horn appears to be a normal trumpet. It can be sounded as a normal horn, but if the command word is spoken and the instrument is then played, it has the following effects, both of which happen at once:

A 100-foot cone of sound issues forth from the horn. All within this area must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 16). Those who succeed are stunned for 1 round and deafened for 2 rounds. Those failing the saving throw take 1d10 points of damage, are stunned for 2 rounds, and are deafened for 4 rounds.
An ultrasonic wave 1 foot wide and 100 feet long issues from the horn. The wave weakens such materials as metal, stone, and wood. This effect deals 1d10 points of damage to objects within the area, ignoring their hardness.
If a horn of blasting is used magically more than once in a given day, there is a 10% cumulative chance with each extra use that it explodes and deals 5d10 points of damage to the person sounding it.

Nowhere does it mention Sonic Damage. It says Damage. But it doesn't give a descripter of Sonic Damage. The base spell that is used to create it, Shout, does not give a Sonic Damage descriptor.

Look at Fireball, Cone of Cold, Lightning Bolt, etc. They all say they do Fire, Cold, Electricity damage. Shout does not Spesify what the damage is.

The spell prevents Sound attacks. Bardic abilities, harpy cries, they all require the person to Hear the attack, just like a Language comprehension spell.

 

[Jeremy]

And yet the effects of a horn of blasting are negated by silence. Specifically.

This only further reinforces that if the attack is sound based, and you can have no sound in the area, then the attack doesn't work.

If no fire can function in a specially warded area, then a fireball will do no damage. If no sound can function in a specially warded area then a great shout will do no damage.

 

[Xarlen]

And yet the effects of a horn of blasting are negated by silence. Specifically.

This only further reinforces that if the attack is sound based, and you can have no sound in the area, then the attack doesn't work.

If no fire can function in a specially warded area, then a fireball will do no damage. If no sound can function in a specially warded area then a great shout will do no damage.

I don't see how that furthers your arguement. My point is that it doesn't say sonic damage. It says sound. Then it just says damage.

Besides, the spell says 'Sonic Attacks'. Is an Energy type an attack?

 

[Bonedagger]

Then if you walked into a room with creatures that were immune to mind affecting spells, they would automatically see you?

If you cast invisibilty when surrounded by 100 creatures with SR, you'd have to roll for SR for each of them to see whether or not you affected their minds.

Again, read the glamer entry - it affects the sensory characteristics of something. In the case of invisibility, it affects light reflecting off of you. In the case of silence, it affects sound in the area of effect.

I too had issues with these spells being illusions at first, but as you can see glamers are mind effecting spells.

IceBear

I do see your point

Actually I normally call invisibility "bending of lightwaves". Sorry. Got carried away. I used to work with the concept of simple illusions not being subject to SR (Bending of lightwaves sounds so none-illusionary ). Must have gotten it mixed up.

I must be tirred.

 

[Jeremy]

A fireball is an energy [fire] attack, so yes. I'd say energy is an attack.

Furthermore, I'd say a sonic fireball is an energy [sonic] attack and is thus disqualified from causing damage in the radius of a silence spell as a sound based attack.

No?

EDIT: Clarified (or over complicated) second assertion.