D&D General BG3 and 5E Theories. Top 10.

[Zardnaar]

Currently addicted to BG3. My wife an myself both started playing around 27th December and used holiday pay to play it way to much (4 weeks minimum here). Camping was inconvenient January is always quiet.

First week we played to near the end of act 2, she hit start of act 3. We restarted as we missed key things and bumped the difficulty up to tactician.

We have used the game to testbed some 5E theories and abuse some concepts we've been working on for a while. Very broadly speaking she's a bigger powergamer than I am and is better at dedicated builds while I'm better at spotting combos and putting those builds togather. Or designing a build from scratch. I went in blind with an eldritch knight she went in blind with a light cleric but was googling things like tavern brawler builds while I figured out alchemy first she beat me on illithid powers.

So I'm ignoring big changes BG made to some classes eg monk and things like tavern brawler and rogue: thief as they got buffed.

Assumptions going in.

The -5/+10 feats will be good along with the existing OP archetypes eg light clerics and gloomstalkers.

Races. Elves will be good as always Dragonborn probably still suck. Gith, Humans, Half elves were "new" in game.

Theory 1. The short rest party. Confirmed (partly).

For a while I have been wanting to see a short rest party. Players play what they want IRL. Fighters, Monks, Warlocks cleric abilities and bards from level 5. Song of rest works differently in BG3 vs TT. This worked better than I thought and is transferable to the ttrpg. Short rest after every fight. In ttrpg same idea or every 2 fights imho. Really good at low level.

2. 5MWD
We don't do this so much relative to the net. It seems Paladins are very well regarded online die to nova. I prefer fighters ymmv. On tactician it costs double supplies so low level endurance is better early on. 3 or 4 encounters are more typical both personal preference and in game design. Clearing the Gith Creche level 5 ir 6 in one long rest is interesting.

3. Crowd Control.

Early on in 5E I pointed out how good the -5/+10 feats were. This was in 2014 and early 2015. AC is just a number. Crowd control is really good in BG 3 BUT. Death is still the best debuff. My parties lean towards 3 strikers and a support PC wife leans towards 2 strikers, support, control. Control is better early, striker better latter on. I found Cazador fight reasonably easy. Raphael slightly harder.

5. Boss fights dont work that well in 5E or BG3. Either a cakewalk or a very fine line between hard fight and TPK.

6. Hardest encounters so far the devil in Shars Gauntlet and phase spiders below level 5. Terrain and special abilities are harder than buckets of hit points and spells. This tracks with table top.

7. Replicating BG fights in tabletop woul9d be harder. The maps are generally bigger requiring dash to get anywhere and are in 3D. Conditions like high ground bonus would be comparative easy to replicate.

8. Sword and board and dual wielding still kinda suck. Much like tabletop you need to funnel better magic weapons their way. Lathanders Blood is really only decent due to ACT 2 vs being a +3 weapon at level 5 or 6. This is why magical polearms, hand crossbows and bows are rare in my games. You get a +1, longsword user finds a sunblade or frostbrand.

9. Encumbrance and crafting are fun BG3 and other games. BUT the computer does the work for you. Tabletop not so much.

10. Races. No big surprises here outside the Gith and Half Elf. Generally I like the floating ability scores the rest of the post Tashas stuff I xan take it or leave it. Dragonborn should probably be banned unless you're using Fizbans. Game uses older tweaked Gith than the newer version. I've been eying up the old Gith for a while. Half elves and humans make great Warlocks, Wizard, Sorcerers. Gith are good at everything, outclassed in certain builds, great skill monkeys.

Main takeaways anyway as it related to the tabletop game. Magic items, tavern brawler and things like Monks don't translate very well. Monks are awesome in BG3. Wife didn't believe me initial game, restart Asterions a Monk both games very similar build.

Tav Builds.

Initial.
Hers. Light cleric.
His Eldritch Knight.

Restart.
Hers. Gith Bard respecced into Cleric2/Bard xyz. Support/control.

His. Sorlock. Watlock into Sorcerer respecced sorcerer/warlock/fighter (endgame Sorcerer8/Warlock 2/Fighter 2).

 

[Ogre Mage]

8. Sword and board and dual wielding still kinda suck. Much like tabletop you need to funnel better magic weapons their way. Lathanders Blood is really only decent due to ACT 2 vs being a +3 weapon at level 5 or 6. This is why magical polearms, hand crossbows and bows are rare in my games. You get a +1, longsword user finds a sunblade or frostbrand.

Dual wielding hand crossbows is actually extremely powerful in BG3 with the correct build. I've done two versions of this. Gloomstalker Ranger 5/Champion Fighter 4/Thief Rogue 3 and Swords Bard 10/Fighter 2. The key is to get both the archery fighting style and the sharpshooter feat. The first build devastates enemies with a combination of dread ambusher (ranged), multiple bonus actions from rogue and thief subclass, sneak attack and action surge. The second uses the sword's bard's ranged slashing flourish and action surge and is a incredible party face and caster in addition to putting out major ranged damage. The gloomstalker version is stronger in the early game while the swords bard is better late.

Keep haunting Dammon every long rest until you can get +1 hand crossbows from him in Act 1. Roah Moonglow sells a good one (ne'er misser) in Moonrise Act 2. You also get a good one after defeating Yurgir in Act 2.

His. Sorlock. Watlock into Sorcerer respecced sorcerer/warlock/fighter (endgame Sorcerer8/Warlock 2/Fighter 2).

Be sure you get the potent robe from the rescue the tieflings quest in Act 2. This is a must have for warlocks or sorlocks. Alfira must be alive in Act 2 for you to get this quest.

 

[Zardnaar]

Dual wielding hand crossbows is actually extremely powerful in BG3 with the correct build. I've done two versions of this. Gloomstalker Ranger 5/Champion Fighter 4/Thief Rogue 3 and Swords Bard 10/Fighter 2. The key is to get both the archery fighting style and the sharpshooter feat. The first build devastates enemies with a combination of dread ambusher (ranged), multiple bonus actions from rogue and thief subclass, sneak attack and action surge. The second uses the sword's bard's ranged slashing flourish and action surge and is a incredible party face and caster in addition to putting out major ranged damage. The gloomstalker version is stronger in the early game while the swords bard is better late.

Keep haunting Dammon every long rest until you can get +1 hand crossbows from him in Act 1. Roah Moonglow sells a good one (ne'er misser) in Moonrise Act 2. You also get a good one after defeating Yurgir in Act 2.



Be sure you get the potent robe from the rescue the tieflings quest in Act 2. This is a must have for warlocks or sorlocks. Alfira must be alive in Act 2 for you to get this quest.

Have the robes and tge archer build with Halsin. They're still using the -5/+10 feats.

Dual wielding without them seems underwhelming much past level 5/6.

2 devoted naces, book of lathanders and the finesse longswords etc don't add up to much when you're having 4-9 attacks.

Halsin I'm testing archer builds. Titan bow+elixer of cloud giant strength. an accuracy one and double hand crossbows build.

All with risky ring. Thef 3, gloomstalker maybe fighter levels and AC 17+full dex armor.

Also have an alchemist and 40 odd potions of speed. Pure Fighter for action surge, feats and 3-6 attacks might be better than gloomstalker/thief mixes.

Alertness feat or elixirs, potions of haste and twin haste tends to thin the battlefield.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Just finished on Tactician. Enjoyed it a lot, but I'd say almost all deviations from standard 5e seemed not so good to me.

Maybe levels 1-3 or 4 there was some challenge but after that I think combat was way way too easy.

Chief offenders are things that are deviations from my usual table top experience:

1) the tweaks to things like haste, thief bonus action, tavern brawler, etc. Action economy is the biggest -- hasted sorcerer with a quickened bonus action spell. Or a hasted monk with extra bonus action from thief just flurrying away. craziness.

2) initiative based on 1d4 vs. d20? leads to the party acting first and/or all together way too often

3) magic items are ridiculously plentiful including consumables. and everyone can use any scroll! I didn't really even use these that much as I just forgot and didn't need to. I ended the game with a crazy amount of potions, elixirs, and scrolls that I was saving.

4) many OP magic items-- like hat of fire acuity with stacking + to hit and DC of your next spell. 5 scorching rays into hold monster. game over

5) ithilid powers if you go that way. repeated black holes into AOEs. easy

6) liked the 2 short rest per long rest rule. BUT you could basically long rest at will. food was unlimited after a while. there were only a few places where it seemed like there was true consequences or you couldn't just back out of the red zone and camp.

7) The few challenging combats were binary. If you walk in blind you might lose, but if you have to load a save and know what is coming it becomes trivially easy. Not a great experience.

8) if you explore the full maps in each Act you hit level 12 early in Act 3 with nothing to look forward to advancement wise and the Act 3 encounters are easy at Level 12 with full gear

None of these things required crazy min maxing. Just regular picking good options and using the best equipment you have.

In my experience 5e is hard enough to design good encounters in table top without all the extra power BG3 throws in with action economy, magic items, auto long rest, and potentially Ithilid powers.

 

[Zardnaar]

Just finished on Tactician. Enjoyed it a lot, but I'd say almost all deviations from standard 5e seemed not so good to me.

Maybe levels 1-3 or 4 there was some challenge but after that I think combat was way way too easy.

Chief offenders are things that are deviations from my usual table top experience:

1) the tweaks to things like haste, thief bonus action, tavern brawler, etc. Action economy is the biggest -- hasted sorcerer with a quickened bonus action spell. Or a hasted monk with extra bonus action from thief just flurrying away. craziness.

2) initiative based on 1d4 vs. d20? leads to the party acting first and/or all together way too often

3) magic items are ridiculously plentiful including consumables. and everyone can use any scroll! I didn't really even use these that much as I just forgot and didn't need to. I ended the game with a crazy amount of potions, elixirs, and scrolls that I was saving.

4) many OP magic items-- like hat of fire acuity with stacking + to hit and DC of your next spell. 5 scorching rays into hold monster. game over

5) ithilid powers if you go that way. repeated black holes into AOEs. easy

6) liked the 2 short rest per long rest rule. BUT you could basically long rest at will. food was unlimited after a while. there were only a few places where it seemed like there was true consequences or you couldn't just back out of the red zone and camp.

7) The few challenging combats were binary. If you walk in blind you might lose, but if you have to load a save and know what is coming it becomes trivially easy. Not a great experience.

8) if you explore the full maps in each Act you hit level 12 early in Act 3 with nothing to look forward to advancement wise and the Act 3 encounters are easy at Level 12 with full gear

None of these things required crazy min maxing. Just regular picking good options and using the best equipment you have.

In my experience 5e is hard enough to design good encounters in table top without all the extra power BG3 throws in with action economy, magic items, auto long rest, and potentially Ithilid powers.

I hit level 6 ACT 1. 30 potions of hill giant strength and I've been using them.

 

[Shardstone]

BG3 IMO proved that "high powered" magic items should just be given out in T2 and T1 should have decently powerful magic items in it. It makes the game more fun, gives more flexibility to encounters, and gives the players something to rely on besides their class which adds a tremendous amount of agency to their decisions. Likewise, in TTRPG instead of video games, you can make these magic items the focus of plots, enemies coming for them, items building reputation, etc etc.

I just don't see the appeal anymore of playing a fighter with basic weapons in T1 and then getting, at best, a +1 longsword or something else that's super mid for T2.

 

[Zardnaar]

BG3 IMO proved that "high powered" magic items should just be given out in T2 and T1 should have decently powerful magic items in it. It makes the game more fun, gives more flexibility to encounters, and gives the players something to rely on besides their class which adds a tremendous amount of agency to their decisions. Likewise, in TTRPG instead of video games, you can make these magic items the focus of plots, enemies coming for them, items building reputation, etc etc.

I just don't see the appeal anymore of playing a fighter with basic weapons in T1 and then getting, at best, a +1 longsword or something else that's super mid for T2.

Alot of official 5E adventures do hand out decent ones around level 5.

BG what breaks it is combos. I had two +3 maces that deal an extra 1d8 radiant damage and blood of lathander sitting in my camp chest because they weren't good enough.

I've since found one build at least that could make them work.

 

[Dausuul]

I concur on the power of martial damage builds in BG3. This power rests almost entirely on the -5/+10 feats and on Tavern Brawler*, which BG3 took from "niche feat for grapple specialists" to "the most powerful combat feat in the game." The removal of multiclassing restrictions and the changes to the thief subclass (giving them an extra bonus action every round) then dump several gallons of gasoline on the fire.

So far, the scariest builds I've tried are open hand monk and berserker barbarian, both dipping 3-4 levels into thief and using Tavern Brawler. The berserker throws the Nyrulna spear four times per round, combining massive single-target damage at range and two no-save knockdowns with 8d6 thunder damage in a 20-foot radius (essentially a thunder fireball). The monk spams up to 8 unarmed strikes per round, with a mix of knockdowns, pushes, and stuns as needed. The monk lays down more damage, I think, but the berserker's ability to strike at long range is immensely useful in BG3's complex battlefields.

(Note that this is in Honor Mode; you can get really insane with exponentially scaling damage riders in non-Honor mode, but that's crossing the line from "super-cheesy but legit build" to "exploiting a bug" in my book.)

The scariest caster I've tried was a storm sorcerer dipping two levels in tempest cleric, and abusing the fact that in BG3, dumping water on someone imposes vulnerability to lightning and cold. She could lay down some phenomenal AoE damage, but couldn't sustain it, while the martials could keep pouring on the damage, round after round.

I don't know that this has much if any bearing on 5E, except to say that the -5/+10 feats are OP, which we already knew, and that multiclassing is a mess, which we also knew... and that the 5E designers were wise to keep a tight rein on the action economy. Any time you start handing out extra actions, all hell breaks loose. There's a reason people are willing to dip two whole levels just for Action Surge.

I'm currently taking a break from BG3. When I come back to it, I plan to impose some restrictions on myself (single-class only, no GWM/Sharpshooter/Tavern Brawler), drop back from Honor Mode to Balanced, and focus exclusively on RP. It was fun pushing the limits, but I beat Honor Mode twice and that's enough for this guy. I want to try some of the Origins besides the Dark Urge; I'm thinking of playing Gale and romancing Karlach for a "doomed lovers" theme.

*BG3's version of Tavern Brawler adds your Strength bonus to attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes and throwing weapons -- and it stacks with your regular Strength bonus. So you can be attacking with +13 to hit, for weapon damage+10, as early as level 6, and that's without magic items and elixirs. Throwing weapon specialists and monks have a field day.

 

[MGibster]

I'm guessing the influence of BG3 will lead to jumping being far more important in future iterations of D&D than ever before.

 

[cbwjm]

I hit level 6 ACT 1. 30 potions of hill giant strength and I've been using them.

Wait, you haven't been saving your potions for when you  really need them?