Big Dungeons - An unrequited love?

[Mystery Man]

Something I've always wondered, and maybe I missed it somewhere...

If UM drove Halaster crazy and extended his life, why didn't it do it for the dwarves and then the drow?

If somebody could clear that up for me?

As far as huge dungeons go, as with UM or any one of them really (my lastest massive dungeon would have been The Banewarrens a couple years ago) I too can't stand to run them for any length of time. I find it more tolerable to run short forays into and out of that large dungeon.

 

[Jim Hague]

IMHO, they are only bad, when your players are forced to do it it all at once (or most of it).

That's what really turned me off about the WLD. It's designed to be played non-stop (or close to it).

It's better when players can just go in when they want and leave when they want. Or at least relatively easily. Multiple entrances/exits.

Wow. Uh, no. Not designed to play non-stop. You're just plain wrong there.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Wow. Uh, no. Not designed to play non-stop. You're just plain wrong there.

Really? I was under the impression that WLD, as written, assumed the PCs would not be able to make it back to civilization on a regular basis (iirc telepotation type spells were banned and the dungeon itself was immune ot be altered in any significant way). I don't own the book however so this is merely heresay.

For me the key is to able to let the party out on a regular basis. Not just to restock at a local town and go back in but to do other things and then, maybe, return. I really like dungeons but use them sparingly and only when it makes sense for there to be a dungeon there.

 

[diaglo]

Really? I was under the impression that WLD, as written, assumed the PCs would not be able to make it back to civilization on a regular basis (iirc telepotation type spells were banned and the dungeon itself was immune ot be altered in any significant way). I don't own the book however so this is merely heresay.

haven't taken mine out of the shrinkwrap yet either.

but from many of the threads i've read or people(JoeBlank, howandwhy99) i've spoken to about it that seems to be how people are playing it. like you, though, i don't know if that is the rule or if it is just convenient for the DM and parties involved.

 

[Jim Hague]

Really? I was under the impression that WLD, as written, assumed the PCs would not be able to make it back to civilization on a regular basis (iirc telepotation type spells were banned and the dungeon itself was immune ot be altered in any significant way). I don't own the book however so this is merely heresay.

For me the key is to able to let the party out on a regular basis. Not just to restock at a local town and go back in but to do other things and then, maybe, return. I really like dungeons but use them sparingly and only when it makes sense for there to be a dungeon there.

It's designed to be modular - you can play it straight through, but given the density of encounters and the sheer amount of stuff to do, you're talking 2-3 years, playing 4-5 hours a week once a week to get through it, on average. and that's just hacking your way through and ignoring the plots and subplots within.

The default settings for WLD do ban some spells - not something I agree with, but I wasn't the publisher - but the inherent design is meant to serve it up in small chunks. There's an easy way in and out (the Elven garrison), once the PCs get to it. Hence the modularity. With very little modification, nearly any Region in WLD can be used as an individual dungeon. Worked great for me when some very foolish PCs descended a nitre-caked staircase amidst ruins in my Conan: Dark Thuria campaign.

 

[XO]

Xxl

Dungeon Management...

Dwarves build underground cities. Humans even build mountain flank, cave recessed towns withotu any of the dwarven traits (see Google, Images, Cappadocia .... which is in Turkey and had supplied so many neat pix for my campaign).

There must be a sensible travel route.... Leaving from level 12 to surface should not be a 3 week ordeal, and the side passages or shortcuts should be one-way until used from the lower entrance.

3E / 3.5 has been incredibly bad at structuring large dungeons. They occur as spreads or sprawls (such as WLD). Rappan Athuk is an exception. BUT, a classic dungeon in the Castle Greyhawk style MUST have depths that spread staircase-like and some floors running back to be partly below the initial floors. So, as an example, from lvl 1, you should access levels 2, 5, 8 and 19 (or any other pleasant combination).

DMs so often forget to make them alive... <Boom> <Crash> <"Arrrrrrrggggghhhhhh"> zzzzzzzz... Loud noises, a battle, a death scream and still, they sleep.

Large underground complexes are the only true means of defense when aerial combat and/or bombardment is possible. Dragons, rocs, even Levitate... Governments all over have cave or underground complexes. NORAD is underground (central command, at least). Are your dwarves, orcs and goblins any stupider ?

 

[LostSoul]

Put a time limit on it too so you don't get bored while they're looking "behind door #3"

This is the traditional role of the "wandering monster". If the players take too long, some monsters wander up and eat away at their resources. So when the players decide to explore something, they are making a choice to risk loss of precious resources (spells, hp).

 

[Psychic Warrior]

It's designed to be modular - you can play it straight through, but given the density of encounters and the sheer amount of stuff to do, you're talking 2-3 years, playing 4-5 hours a week once a week to get through it, on average. and that's just hacking your way through and ignoring the plots and subplots within.

The default settings for WLD do ban some spells - not something I agree with, but I wasn't the publisher - but the inherent design is meant to serve it up in small chunks. There's an easy way in and out (the Elven garrison), once the PCs get to it. Hence the modularity. With very little modification, nearly any Region in WLD can be used as an individual dungeon. Worked great for me when some very foolish PCs descended a nitre-caked staircase amidst ruins in my Conan: Dark Thuria campaign.

Hmmm that does sound better than I was lead to believe. Its a huge expenditure to take a chance on but I will at least keep my eyes out for a discounted copy.

One house rule I made, to alieviate the tediousness of the 'check every 5 feet' nature dungeons can becoem was to institue the take 10 rule on a constant basis. What i mean is that PCs are assumed to be 'taking 10' on the 3 key detection skills (Spot, Search Listen) at all times and I (as DM) will tell them if there is something amiss. For unusal or specific dungeon dressings, however, standard search rules apply (ie a door or a statue could be searched meticously but a standard 10' corridor probably won't be - I am not a fan of the randomly placed trap in a populated dungeon. Traps, to me, are meant to kill or capture people poking into others stuff).

 

[Jim Hague]

Hmmm that does sound better than I was lead to believe. Its a huge expenditure to take a chance on but I will at least keep my eyes out for a discounted copy.

One house rule I made, to alieviate the tediousness of the 'check every 5 feet' nature dungeons can becoem was to institue the take 10 rule on a constant basis. What i mean is that PCs are assumed to be 'taking 10' on the 3 key detection skills (Spot, Search Listen) at all times and I (as DM) will tell them if there is something amiss. For unusal or specific dungeon dressings, however, standard search rules apply (ie a door or a statue could be searched meticously but a standard 10' corridor probably won't be - I am not a fan of the randomly placed trap in a populated dungeon. Traps, to me, are meant to kill or capture people poking into others stuff).

While the book recommends removing Take 10, I'm of the opinion that's a huge mistake, especially given the amount of dungeon there is to cover and taking into account certain abilities that allow a Take 10/20 in any situation. Your house rule sounds like a fine idea, and I think it'd work well, especially given the extremely dangerous nature of some Regions.

As for discount copies, might I recommend Amazon.com or Buy.com? Both good online retailers, though, as always, your first stop should be the FLGS.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

As for discount copies, might I recommend Amazon.com or Buy.com? Both good online retailers, though, as always, your first stop should be the FLGS.

$120 plus 15% sales tax is a whopper to swallow at the FLGS. They got in exactly one copy and finally managed to sell it 3 months later. They'll only do a special order for it now and don't mind me making the occasional online purchase (I get 95% of my gaming stuff from them after all). I've never used buy.com and the sloooooooow shipping of amazaon.ca kind of irked me last time (3 weeks to travel 200km? HUH?).