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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cryptos" data-source="post: 4326421" data-attributes="member: 58439">Ah, scratch that.  I got CHA and INT scrambled up for a moment.  Regardless, what I was saying still holds true regarding a 4e Ranger in the traditional D&D rogue role going back through all editions vs the 4e Rogue class.  If you want a 3e-ish rogue with several social skills, CHA might be a better choice.  But for a dungeon delving thief, I'd still say WIS would be the better choice, and a ranger with thievery training the better class.Your secondary ability score for skills that help out in actual adventuring, after Dex, is also improving your encounter powers.  You don't have to set up your extra damage conditions quite as much.  There are better mobility options at earlier levels (for instance, as a roguish type, I'd take Hit and Run's 'you can take a full (or partial) move away from your target after attacking without provoking' over Deft Strike's 'you can shift two squares before attacking' any day.)  If you're going with a ranged option, you've got a higher damage and better range weapon.  You don't have to worry about your extra damage not working with some weapons.  And so on.  Unless you're going for some social skills, your average ranger is simply the better choice in the rogue's overall adventuring role than a rogue, at the cost of a single feat for thievery training.</blockquote>