Black Company CS discussion

[johnsemlak]

A very thorough review of Green Ronin's Black Company Campaign Setting has been posted here. I had some questions about the product and was going to respond to the reivew and then decided to start a thread.

Questions:

1. Is the noble class the same or similar to the Noble in the Noble's Handbook?

2. Are any of the classes unchanged from the core rules

3. Any thoughts on using the settings' rules on massive damage in standard D&D campaigns?

4. It's not the first setting to completely eliminate healing magic, but nevertheless it's a major break from standard D&D. I see there are expanded rules for the healing skill and so forth. Has the setting adequately compensated for the lack of healing magic?

5. Is it d20 or OGL?

 

[JoeGKushner]

1. Is the noble class the same or similar to the Noble in the Noble's Handbook?

Haven't studied the two side by side.

2. Are any of the classes unchanged from the core rules

No, the fighter class here for example, as mentioned in my review, gets more skill points, loses their first feat, and has command ability. Other minor changes aboud like the non-spellcasting ranger.

3. Any thoughts on using the settings' rules on massive damage in standard D&D campaigns?

You could but it'd be like using some of the variants in Unearthed Arcana and can result in a much different style of campaign.

4. It's not the first setting to completely eliminate healing magic, but nevertheless it's a major break from standard D&D. I see there are expanded rules for the healing skill and so forth. Has the setting adequately compensated for the lack of healing magic?

I say no. But they're not meant to. It's not D&D, it's the Black Company. Same problem I'm trying to rationalize with Dark Legacies where healing is scarce and death quick.

5. Is it d20 or OGL?

d20.

 

[johnsemlak]

Sorry Joe, I missed your review. Thanks for pointing that out.

I say no. But they're not meant to. It's not D&D, it's the Black Company. Same problem I'm trying to rationalize with Dark Legacies where healing is scarce and death quick.

.

Of course I should have refined my question to ask 'Is the lack of Healing in BC compensated enough to make the game playable (a subjective word is there ever was one). Perhaps I'm from the school that the game gets frustrating if PCs die to easily.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I haven't played it enough to give you an honest answer.

My gut instinct is that if you play in any way, shape, or form resembling the standard D&D campaign, i.e. trading blows, then your characters are going to die.

I've been messing around with AC bonuses similiar to Wheel of Time, as well as Reserve Hit points from Unearthed Arcana.

I'm waiting on getting the Grim Tales adventure, Slavelords of Cydona, and actually using the Black Company to see how that works as GT also doesn't assume a baseline of automatic healing.

 

[Old One]

My gut instinct is that if you play in any way, shape, or form resembling the standard D&D campaign, i.e. trading blows, then your characters are going to die.

Hear, Hear!

I have run a couple of sample combats with low, mid and high-level PCs and 2nd (even 3rd) this observation. The standard D&D tactics of wading through hordes of enemies, trusting in your magical plate armor, loads of hit points and friendly cleric to see you through will likely result in a quick and ignominius death in BCCS. A BC campaign requires a different mindset and play-style than a standard campaign - similar to Midnight or Grim Tales - for both the players and the GM.

Players that use standard D&D tactics will quickly get their PCs killed and GMs that craft standard D&D encounters will quickly kill off the PCs.

Stealth, subterfuge, ambush, hit and run, shaping the battlefield and disengagement in the face of a superior enemy are your friends - just as they were in the novels. From a tactics standpoint - scouting escape routes and fall back positions, concentration of combat power at critical points, reconning your enemies and knowing when not to engage - will be critical for running a successful BC campaign as a player (IMO). Of course, much of that will depend on how the GM designs the campaign, I suppose.

One thing I might incorporate from Grim Tales/Unearthed Arcana is the "Fewer Dead Heroes" option of armor as damage conversion. Since the healing system already relies on conversion of lethal to non-lethal damage, this doesn't really add any extra book keeping. Alternatively, you could also take another page from Grim Tales and allow armor/natural armor bonuses to be added to the MDT Threshold in lieu of armor as damage conversion.

My 2 coppers,

~ Old One

 

[JoeGKushner]

Armor as Damage Reduction eh? I hadn't considered that one.

To me though, this is still a sticking point because dispite the Action Points, the PC's still aren't Heroic Enough. I think I may go with Fading Suns where characters should start off at 3rd level... have to playtest it some more though.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Armor as Damage Reduction eh? I hadn't considered that one.

To me though, this is still a sticking point because dispite the Action Points, the PC's still aren't Heroic Enough. I think I may go with Fading Suns where characters should start off at 3rd level... have to playtest it some more though.

In my reading of the source material - that is, the BC novels - the characters simply aren't heroic in the D&D sense. Matter of fact, I was surprised to see something like Action Points in the campaign setting book, since they don't really gibe well with a grim and gritty setting, which the Black Company world definitely is.

Armor as damage reduction, by the way, sounds like a good variant to add to this setting.

 

[Old One]

Armor as Damage Reduction eh? I hadn't considered that one.

Joe and CH,

I would go with damage conversion instead of damage reduction...converts AC bonus of damage taken from physical attacks from lethal to non-lethal damage. Some of the special qualities of armor in Chapter 8 (Equipment) have DR, so treating armor as DR would nerf those a bit. Armor as damage conversion is a bit more forgiving in that it potentially leads to more knockouts, as opposed to deaths.

You can also apply damage conversion prior to figuring MDT, which can make things a bit less deadly...so if a PC with an MDT of 15, wearing armor with a +4 AC bonus is hit for an attack doing 18 points of damage, the 4-point conversion would drop the lethal damage to 14 and avoid triggering and MDT roll.

The knock against armor as damage conversion by some is that it requires an extra column for keeping track of non-lethal damage, but most of the healing skills in BCCS already use the mechanic, so I think it would fit nicely.

~ Old One

 

[JoeGKushner]

In my reading of the source material - that is, the BC novels - the characters simply aren't heroic in the D&D sense. Matter of fact, I was surprised to see something like Action Points in the campaign setting book, since they don't really gibe well with a grim and gritty setting, which the Black Company world definitely is.

Armor as damage reduction, by the way, sounds like a good variant to add to this setting.

I agree that they're not heroic in the D&D sense, but they're not dropping like flies in the "I'm first level, in the army, with a good solid plan and surprise, and missed my first round of combat and am now dead". I think the level boost may pay off.

Action Points didn't gibe eh? I can understand it. They do allow actions that seem out of touch with some of the Black Company but there are those members, the Captain, Croaker, Raven, etc... who constintly surprise us. I imagine that the PCs should be able to do that to no? It's almost like the Forgotten Realms problem where the PC's aren't as powerful as the fiction and really can't be due to the game engine.

 

[hellbender]

Hear, Hear!

I have run a couple of sample combats with low, mid and high-level PCs and 2nd (even 3rd) this observation. The standard D&D tactics of wading through hordes of enemies, trusting in your magical plate armor, loads of hit points and friendly cleric to see you through will likely result in a quick and ignominius death in BCCS. A BC campaign requires a different mindset and play-style than a standard campaign - similar to Midnight or Grim Tales - for both the players and the GM.

Players that use standard D&D tactics will quickly get their PCs killed and GMs that craft standard D&D encounters will quickly kill off the PCs.

Stealth, subterfuge, ambush, hit and run, shaping the battlefield and disengagement in the face of a superior enemy are your friends - just as they were in the novels. From a tactics standpoint - scouting escape routes and fall back positions, concentration of combat power at critical points, reconning your enemies and knowing when not to engage - will be critical for running a successful BC campaign as a player (IMO). Of course, much of that will depend on how the GM designs the campaign, I suppose.

One thing I might incorporate from Grim Tales/Unearthed Arcana is the "Fewer Dead Heroes" option of armor as damage conversion. Since the healing system already relies on conversion of lethal to non-lethal damage, this doesn't really add any extra book keeping. Alternatively, you could also take another page from Grim Tales and allow armor/natural armor bonuses to be added to the MDT Threshold in lieu of armor as damage conversion.

My 2 coppers,

~ Old One

I heartily agree with this. If you have read the books, you will know that the Black Company focuses on getting the job done, the less fighting the better, which makes sense if you are simulating real world type fighting, which standard DnD doesn't by a longshot. The "Kick in the Door" style of play doesn't work unless you are backed up by muscle, competent wizards and a good Bluff roll to make the peasants cower.


There aren't many heroes here. The world is pretty bleak, and most adventurers are going to be scoundrels or people running from something or someone, not really upright citizens (with few exceptions, of course).