D&D 5E Blade Pact Warlocks and Conventional Wisdom

[RonLugge]

But can we step back for a second and reconsider the conversation. The discussion at large isn't about some individual, dysfunctional group, where masochistic DMs revel in destroying the party unless they make the most optimal of characters. We are talking about bladelocks in general. And how they are okay. Even when not optimized. Because 5e. Not because you're particular AL experiences of 5e.

Which is one reason I was trying to shut down this side conversation, in my usual bumbling, clueless way. So can we call it done?

 

[Valdier]

So, I'm thinking:

What I am looking at changing for warlock:

Pact of the Blade
You can use your Action to create Pact weapon(s) in your empty hand(s). Pact weapons are considered magical for purposes of overcoming resistance and you are considered proficient in their use. You gain an Extra Attack with your primary pact weapon at 5th level. Add your Charisma bonus to the damage dealt with a Pact Weapon in your primary hand once per turn.

When wielding a single Pact weapon and your offhand is empty, you gain a +2 shield bonus to armor class.

At 11th level, your Primary weapon deals an additional d6 damage when dual wielding pact weapons. The shield bonus is increased to +3 when your offhand is empty.

This along with limiting Agonizing Blast to 30'.

Thoughts? Is it too much?

 

[yakuba]

I think your suggestions are inferior to the Hexblade patron in a couple of ways. You don't provide proficiency with medium armor, martial weapons or shields and you don't allow the hexblade to go Charisma primary. The hexblade pact features (Hexblade's curse, Shadow Hound) also have real warlock 'feel', whereas you're really listing a set of non-evocative straight numerical buffs.

What I like most about the Hexblade patron is that it seems to directly address what I think is the real issue, which is that people want to play a hexblade, a warlock themed melee warrior.
The Hexblade patron adds this facility without eliminating the arcane rogue approach to the pact of the blade that I personally favor in play.

 

[Valdier]

I think your suggestions are inferior to the Hexblade patron in a couple of ways. You don't provide proficiency with medium armor, martial weapons or shields and you don't allow the hexblade to go Charisma primary. The hexblade pact features (Hexblade's curse, Shadow Hound) also have real warlock 'feel', whereas you're really listing a set of non-evocative straight numerical buffs.

What I like most about the Hexblade patron is that it seems to directly address what I think is the real issue, which is that people want to play a hexblade, a warlock themed melee warrior.
The Hexblade patron adds this facility without eliminating the arcane rogue approach to the pact of the blade that I personally favor in play.

True enough and I want to try to bring The Blade pact up to par with others, while not saying "replaced with the Hexblade", but maybe that is honestly the answer.

 

[Valdier]

*double post*

 

[yakuba]

True enough and I want to try to bring The Blade pact up to par with others, while not saying "replaced with the Hexblade", but maybe that is honestly the answer.

I really think the pact of the blade is at par with the others. But, problematically (kinda like the battle master) it hints at a style of play that's not really on offer, i.e. the hexblade. People change the whole way they approach the class for for the pact of the blade, doing crazy stuff like going strength primary, or getting heavy armor or ignoring eldritch blast, and THAT is what is makes it seem weak. Having extra cantrips, or a cool scout doesn't change the whole way you play the class, but having a summonable magic weapon does.

(Disclaimer: Sword Coast Guide does devalue the blade pact relative to the others, but PHB only I think it's fine, if you just accept that it's still a warlock, not a hexblade)

 

[Mephista]

ignoring eldritch blast,

should be viable.

 

[yakuba]

should be viable.

Depends on your definition of viable. It's clearly inferior, but what makes it not viable? Lot's of classes have preferred choices. Bow wielding paladins, GWF Rangers, Brawling Fighters, Sword and Shield Barbarians and EB sparing Warlocks are all legit options that aren't the best options.

That said, pact of the blade is the best way to go if you do want to build a EB sparing Warlock. But IME pact of the blade works well with EB and there's no reason to leave EB/AB on the cutting room floor just because you're going bladelock.

 

[Mephista]

Depends on your definition of viable. It's clearly inferior, but what makes it not viable? Lot's of classes have preferred choices. Bow wielding paladins, GWF Rangers, Brawling Fighters, Sword and Shield Barbarians and EB sparing Warlocks are all legit options that aren't the best options.

You're saying that not taking Eldritch Blast is a "crazy thing" that "change(s) the whole way they approach the class for for the pact of the blade."

I'm calling BS. Eldritch Blast is supposed to be a choice, not a given. It is not a universal class feature, no matter how much some people argue otherwise. You want to run it so that you mix blade and blast? Sure, go for it. But don't try to paint your prefered build as the default assumption, and others as crazy. That's bull, and has zero evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to back it up.

 

[yakuba]

You're saying that not taking Eldritch Blast is a "crazy thing" that "change(s) the whole way they approach the class for for the pact of the blade."

I'm calling BS. Eldritch Blast is supposed to be a choice, not a given. It is not a universal class feature, no matter how much some people argue otherwise. You want to run it so that you mix blade and blast? Sure, go for it. But don't try to paint your prefered build as the default assumption, and others as crazy. That's bull, and has zero evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to back it up.

I'm just going to disagree. You're making a huge assumption about design intent with zero evidence, and then stating it as a fact. And you assumption contradicts what limited empirical information we do have, i.e. EB just does work a lot better than not EB and the original warlock was built around EB spam.