Bladeless Swordmage

[Mal Malenkirk]

Is there any balancing reason to not allow a Swordmage to use a different weapon instead of a falchion, greatsword, longsword, scimitar, short sword? (Much like a 3.5 Duskblade doesn't have to use a blade.) I like the image of my Swordmage wielding a warhammer but I'm not sure if I overlooked any balancing issue. Thanks for the insight!

Probably not, but there are some tiny balancing reasons for not having proficiency in all millitary melee weapon like fighters and paladin do.

If you give them axes, remove heavy blade, for example. Otherwise, the swordmage will be able to freely use the very best melee weapon he finds whereas at this point it is more something that the paladin and (to a slightly lesser extent) the fighter do.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Weapons by highest damage:

1 handed: battleaxe, flail and warhammer (PHB) or broadsword (AV)
1H sup : Waraxe 1d12 > 1d10 bastard sword

So, there is a higher damage output 1H weapon then the highest damage 1H heavy blade.

2H: There are 2d6 items (maul/heavy flail) and 1d12 with high crit (great axe and heavy war pick) The greatsword is 1d10 by itself

When you get into superior quality you have the full blade at 1d12 high crit, but there is also the executioner's axe that adds brutal 2 to the property and mordenkrad that has 2d6 with brutal 1.

Ultimately, if you don't care about the prof bonus difference (i.e. nearly all your powers are only using the weapon as an implement) you can find a non-blade that does more damage. This is important since some of the implement based powers use [W] as part of it's damage.

 

[DracoSuave]

If Swordmages could use non-blades as implements then sign me up for a Mordenkrad please and thank you. Some of them implement powers are based on the assumption that you're using blades which deal less dice in damage than other types. Remove that restriction and you've opened up those powers to get the higher damage without taking the hit in accuracy.

Is that a good idea?

 

[Squizzle]

Where do you find the enchantment for throwing shield? I skimmed the AV to no avail.

Page 121.

 

[Rechan]

Part of the real hurt is that if you don't use a sword, you lose your warding bonus. That really hurts the SM for AC.

There's also issues with feats. Heavy Blade Opportunist vs. Deadly Axe, etc.

But I agree with the above poster that if you shift the weapon they can use (Hammers, Axes, Polearms), then remove the proficency for swords. That way the class is focused on one type of weapon.

(I personally want a good Spear/Polearm using Eladrin Swordmage/Warlord. Mm)

 

[firesnakearies]

I'd say that if you took away proficiency in military light and heavy blades, gave them proficiency in one other group of military weapons, and then just replaced any reference to blades in their class features or powers with the new weapon type, it would be fine and not broken at all.

A flailmage would be cool, I think.



EDIT: You could just make the class generic as far as weapon choice, and let each member choose a particular weapon group. You could call the class Armsmage, and then individual Armsmages might call themselves some specific variant thereof depending on what weapon they prefer to bond with. (Swordmage, Axemage, Chainmage, Hammermage, Spearmage, etc.)

 

[WalterKovacs]

I'd say that if you took away proficiency in military light and heavy blades, gave them proficiency in one other group of military weapons, and then just replaced any reference to blades in their class features or powers with the new weapon type, it would be fine and not broken at all.

A flailmage would be cool, I think.



EDIT: You could just make the class generic as far as weapon choice, and let each member choose a particular weapon group. You could call the class Armsmage, and then individual Armsmages might call themselves some specific variant thereof depending on what weapon they prefer to bond with. (Swordmage, Axemage, Chainmage, Hammermage, Spearmage, etc.)

The argument though is that, blades, as a group, give up damage [or effects like high crit and brutal] in exchange for increased accuracy. Most blades have +3 prof bonus and the most damaging effects come from axes and hammers.

In switching the weaponchoice of the class, you increase the power of implement based attacks with [W] damage. Implement based attacks do not use the prof bonus of the weapon used as an implement. Some of those powers use [W] for damage. By using a non-blade, you get to have much better [W] damage, and by using the implement power you ignore the "cost" associated with that damage of having a lower prof bonus.

 

[firesnakearies]

I thought of that, but ultimately, the difference would be small enough to be negligible, I think. The damage difference isn't that great, and there are only 4 out of 70 Swordmage powers (none of them at-will) which are Implement-based and do [W] damage. The vast majority are Weapon-based powers, so you'd still be losing out on accuracy for all of those.

I can't see a very few possible extra points of damage on four powers (three of which are low-level, too) being enough of an unbalancing factor to rule out reskinning the class to allow for individual weapon group choices.

 

[WalterKovacs]

I thought of that, but ultimately, the difference would be small enough to be negligible, I think. The damage difference isn't that great, and there are only 4 out of 70 Swordmage powers (none of them at-will) which are Implement-based and do [W] damage. The vast majority are Weapon-based powers, so you'd still be losing out on accuracy for all of those.

I can't see a very few possible extra points of damage on four powers (three of which are low-level, too) being enough of an unbalancing factor to rule out reskinning the class to allow for individual weapon group choices.

There are a few other issues though. First, the only reach weapons with +3 prof are non-blades, and each weapon group has associated feats and magic weapon types. Axes are probably the best example, as it gives you high crit property. The increased push ability for spears can come into effect, etc.

Either way, it's something that may not be a big deal as a houserule, but it does seem like part of the reasoning isn't just flavor. One note ... your only choice of heavy thrown weapon you initially have proficiency in is the javelin ... while axe/hammer prof would let you have. You are a bit better than the average defender, but you still have little in the way of ranged attack power, so it would come up. Just making sure people keep in mind all the points if they choose to go the route.

The biggest unintentional issue might be in magic items. You still have the properties when an item is used as an implement, so there may be powers you can't get on a blade that have quirky interactions with swordmage implement powers.

 

[scarik]

The biggest unintentional issue might be in magic items. You still have the properties when an item is used as an implement, so there may be powers you can't get on a blade that have quirky interactions with swordmage implement powers.

Being as the DM has absolute control over which items you can have this isn't really an issue.

That said its probably ok to allow, but be aware that there is a slight advantage in the [W] department unless you just, you know, make a +2 to hit, versatile d12 sword (claymore!) in your game.