D&D 5E Bladesinger - a criticism of its design

[Rhenny]

IIRC green-flame blade doesn't replace an attack. You cast the spells and make an attack as part of the casting. So you attack twice with Extra Attack or once with the spell. But the cantrip's damage increase.

Right. I haven't gotten to that level yet, but what you say makes sense since it is the spell as the action, not an attack action. Thanks. I edited my post to reflect the correction.

 

[Rhenny]

Oh...by the way, if anyone wants to read game summaries from my PCs perspective, I keep a log in Story Hour.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?503889-Lenora-s-Journal-for-Our-Phandelver-Campaign

 

[Mort]

As I mentioned in another thread, my big problem with the bladesinger isn't a power issue.

It's that the best use of the bladesinger abilities is actually to just hang back and do the standard mage shtick (with better AC and mobility) than to rush into combat as a barely competent melee type.

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[Rhenny]

As I mentioned in another thread, my big problem with the bladesinger isn't a power issue.

It's that the best use of the bladesinger abilities is actually to just hang back and do the standard mage shtick (with better AC and mobility) than to rush into combat as a barely competent melee type.

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Interesting. To tell the truth, I've been having a bit of a struggle with this myself. Although I wanted my Bladesinger to be more of a brave swashbuckling fighter, I'm finding that she is definitely using her intelligence more often to stay away from too much trouble.

In fact, I've been debating whether to just take Arcane Initiate as a feat instead of Mobility next level since I may want to pick up Firebolt and Light spell, and be able to cast the Mage Armor 1/day from the feat rather than from my prepared list. The firebolt will allow me more range and I'll be able to get rid of my bow and arrows at 5th level when the firebolt does 2d10 damage from afar.

In the end, I'm going to go with mobility though to force her into the role she was created to play. We'll see how it goes.

 

[cbwjm]

I have a 5th level bladesinger, Dex 18, Int 16, studded leather +1 so I normally have an AC of 17, or 20 if I am bladesinging. Bladesong is pretty potent but not the ultimate win ability that some people seem to think it is. You get to use it twice/short rest which means you have to decide on whether or not to get in close or stand back and sling spells. If you are incapacitated, it stops. Get hit by a hold person and you lose it. As others have said, low hit points means that damage which requires a saving throw is going to wear you down and this can happen quite quickly.

Greenflame blade is a great damage cantrip. At level 5 I'm hitting for 1d6 (short sword) + 1d8 (fire) +4 (dex) against a single target with the chance to deal an additional 1d8+3 fire damage to a creature adjacent to my target. I've noticed during play how little this really happens. All too often, the enemies are formed in ranks and are instead a little spread out and this is just from normal gameplay, not my DM trying to lessen the damage output of my cantrip.

Also of note, the very first encounter I had as my new bladesinger (I created it at level 5) was a young remorhaz. A remorhaz is immune to fire and deals damage when hit in melee so my bladesong wasn't super useful for that encounter and neither was greenflame blade.

Bladesong is also just a straight combat boost, traps and other things can finish off a bladesinger pretty quick. We were jumping across pillars some of which collapse and dump you in acid and my dexterity saves were just rubbish. I'd be dead if not for DM retcon.

As is, that group fell apart so I'll never get a chance to try out the other two high level abilities that are also dependent on bladesong.

 

[Mistwell]

Why change a foundational rule (char gen) when one archetype could have been balanced better? That's really the tail wagging the dog.

In three years, yours is the very first post I can ever recall claiming this is an issue. And I am guessing you have not played very long with this PC to see how balanced or unbalanced it might be. I suspect this is mostlym though not entirely, theorycrafting. Regardless, your experience is definitely not representative of the experiences of the overwhelming majority of players of this game so far. While it is possible it's just a combination that's never come up so nobody every happened across how broken it is in three years, that seems unlikely. It seems more likely your sample is just too brief and not representative of that PC. It sure does not seem like a combination that would make for a melee combatant as good as a fighter, barbarian, paladin, or ranger. Certainly not as good in melee if one of those four classes also has two 20s by 4th level and a high third stat as well.

 

[AmerginLiath]

If one character shows up with two 18s at level one and the concern is over balance, the answer is to reroll that character’s stats.

 

[CapnZapp]

It's that the best use of the bladesinger abilities is actually to just hang back and do the standard mage shtick (with better AC and mobility) than to rush into combat as a barely competent melee type.

This.

(The tactical conclusion, not the dig at the subclass)



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[Shiroiken]

There aren't really three challenging combats per short rest, in any campaign I've yet seen.

You need to play with my group then. Today was 4 combats before taking a rest with level 1&2 characters. Challenging may be debated, but they were medium fights according the DMG (which is a measurement I seldom use). This really isn't uncommon with us, and in the other game we play (where I'm a player), we seldom take a short rest, because the opportunity cost is too high. We play based on a 24 hour world cycle, rather than the short rest/long rest/encounters per day setup, which removes abuse by short rest classes and the dreaded five minute work day.

 

[clearstream]

It's that the best use of the bladesinger abilities is actually to just hang back and do the standard mage shtick (with better AC and mobility) than to rush into combat as a barely competent melee type.

It appears a number of people in this thread have failed to understand that this is the problem I'm criticising: Bladesinger is a full mage (with better AC and Concentration saves and Acrobatics and mobility) who can also rush into melee as a competent melee type.

Full mages alone are the bar for power in 5e (less so than in earlier editions, but still so). A full mage who can compete in melee (with better AC than the heaviest armoured martial) is poor design. And avoidable. The class itself develops the concept wonderfully. It is flavourful and fun: I want to see better balanced archetypes in splatbooks because I want to see the game expand. If you didn't play 3rd edition, you missed the egregious power-creeping of its numerous splatbooks.

Power-creeping by design appears to arise from a myopic, commercially-drive belief that player purchase decisions are principally driven by munchkin behaviour. I believe that well-written, flavourful features, that do something different and valued, are more important to players than straight power options. In my experience, groups love embracing options that don't overshadow the content they've already invested in. With the value of hindsight, 5e can do better than 3e.

Finally, for those who think that balancing the game without taking the standard character generation system into account is fine, we're not going to reach a point where I agree with you. And that is independent of whether the game is easier to balance using points buy: stop conflating the arguments. I appreciate your input, but please don't recite the argument again here. If you'd like to explore it further, I encourage you to make your own thread.