Blaming the System for Player/GM actions

[Hussar]

Despite my partial agreement with the opinion earlier, I feel it is infinitely more rude to expect the GM to bow to the rules a player wants to use because he has the disposable income to spend on a splat book.

And, thankfully, this is a canard which has extremely rarely actually seen play. I posted a poll on exactly this before the crash and, at a ratio of some 20 to 1, people had only seen this once or not at all. The myth of player entitlement is one of those things that gets tossed around the net but, very rarely sees the light of day in any game.

 

[gizmo33]

Well, at least I can thank you for letting me know you are people whose posts I can safely ignore.

You're welcome. Players don't get to decide which rules are used in my game - so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here other than ignoring my posts has a relatively low fatality rate.

 

[Umbran]

If someone perceives the problem as the game system, who are we to say they are wrong?

We are a collection of other gamers, with other experiences, and thus collectively more data. Individuals tend to have a limited number of data points at their disposal, and that can make it very difficult to identify root causes.

To then get upset because players use the tools to do what the system encourages and rewards is crazy.

Is it rational to blame the bow and arrow if you shoot yourself in the foot with it?

Any rule set will have optimal choices - that's the nature of rules. D&D is not in any way unique in this regard. It is simply the most popular game so that the results of the choices are seen more often.

The rules are hardly the only thing that encourage playstyles - the DM and other players have input as well. We should only blame the rules in the cases where the players and DM all wanted to play a certain way, and the rules made that playstyle too difficult to achieve.

If you don't want to min-max, the D&D rules won't stand in your way. Your other players might, if they decide they want to play higher power games. Your DM might stand in the way, by choosing encounters you cannot survive at your level if you are not optimally built. But if the players all agree on a power level, and the DM designs or chooses encounters of appropriate power, there's no problem at all.

I will not blame the rules for something that can be corrected with some forethought and minimal effort by the people involved.

 

[prosfilaes]

Is it rational to blame the bow and arrow if you shoot yourself in the foot with it?

Is it rational to blame the car if you ran into a tree with it? Do we really need steel rolecages, seatbelts and airbags?

 

[Umbran]

Is it rational to blame the car if you ran into a tree with it? Do we really need steel rolecages, seatbelts and airbags?

If you like that analogy - Did you happen to note how the rolecages, seatbelts, and airbags do nothing to prevent you from running your car into a tree?

Perhaps it is better, though, to recognize that the analogy was a bit of (hopefully) catchy introduction. There's perfectly good reasoning given afterwards. Do you feel further reductio ad absurdum analogizing is a fitting way to address that?

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Keeping with (not all that great) car analogies:

Who is to blame when someone dies in a car accident?
The people who set an inappropriate speed limit or didn't enforce the limit? (DM decision)
The person driving the car whether within or in excess of the speed limit? (player decision)
The manufacturer of the vehicle that is clearly designed to drive in excess of the speed limit? (the system)

 

[Lanefan]

D&D actively encourages you to play min-maxed characters by rewarding you for it, both with rewards (xp, loot, just plain effectiveness) and penalties (level loss for raise dead, just plain inability to succeed) and gives you the tools to do it (feats, point buy with break points, prestige classes, spell selection, etc.) To then get upset because players use the tools to do what the system encourages and rewards is crazy.

Having just agreed greatly with this same poster on another thread, I have to largely disagree here...yes, the system encourages min-maxing but this is not a desireable result , for a few reasons. First, it's not supposed to be a competitive game, so just because one player knows the sneaky angles should not by design give that player too many built-in advantages. Second, if a player who knows the sneaky angles has a character concept in mind that is intentionally weaker in some way there should not be too much of a systemic penalty attached. Third, things like this tend to greatly discourage the casual player.

Of course, the same holds true for the DM - about the only time I as DM seriously min-max the opposition is if that person or creature is supposed to be a major challenge anyway, such as a "boss".

Lanefan

 

[fusangite]

Keeping with (not all that great) car analogies:

Who is to blame when someone dies in a car accident?
The people who set an inappropriate speed limit or didn't enforce the limit? (DM decision)
The person driving the car whether within or in excess of the speed limit? (player decision)
The manufacturer of the vehicle that is clearly designed to drive in excess of the speed limit? (the system)

Lame-sounding as the analogy is, I think it is a very logical one to use. So, to extend/mangle it a little further, it's important that people choose the right vehicle. It's not a design flaw in the Honda Civic that makes it break when you go off-roading; it's your fault for picking a car designed for a totally different purpose than the one you have decided to use it for.

I'm driven batty by GMs who constantly hand-wave serious rules and internal consistency problems that only arise because they have chosen a system that is incompatible with their GMing style and campaign setting.

 

[LostSoul]

yes, the system encourages min-maxing but this is not a desireable result , for a few reasons.

If it's not a desirable result, why is min-maxing encouraged? That would seem to say that the rules are not doing what they're intended to do.

I don't think D&D is a victim of poor game design.

 

[buzz]

...yes, the system encourages min-maxing but this is not a desireable result , for a few reasons. First, it's not supposed to be a competitive game...

I beileve that you're confusing your personal preferences for an objective standard (i.e., synecdoche).